Chair of Recognise a Better Way, Nyunggai Warren Mundine AO, sits down with the Institute of Public Affairs’ Daniel Wild to discuss the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum and what it really means for Australia.
Below is a transcript of the interview.
Daniel Wild:
Welcome to this special episode of Free Voices. I’m Daniel Wild, and it’s a pleasure to be joined by Warren Mundine. Warren is one of Australia’s most highly respected and influential businessmen, a political strategist and advocate of Indigenous empowerment through economic opportunity. Warren Mundine has lived over half his life in regional Australia and was national president of the Labor Party in 2006 and 2007.
In 2016, Warren was awarded the coveted Officer of the Order of Australia for distinguished service to the community as a leader in Indigenous affairs and advocate for enhancing economic and social public policy outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Recently, Warren has been a leading public intellectual in his opposition to the proposed voice to Parliament. And Warren is a member of the Bundjalung, Gobekli and Yuen people of New South Wales. Warren is also director of the Indigenous Forum at the Center for Independent Studies and President of Recognize A Better Way. Warren, thanks for being with us.
Warren Mundine:
Yeah, it’s always good to have your mother write your CV for you.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, that’s right. Well, I’m just waiting for the payment at the end of the episode. So look, Warren, we’ll chat about the voice in your perspective on that. You’ve been widely covered in the media, your analysis over recent days and months, but to begin with, to start the chat, I reckon that your life and your history is very much an Australian life, your story of success, achievement, upward mobility. You are one of 11 siblings to your family. Lived in modest circumstances, and you’re here today as one of Australia’s leading public intellectuals. Can you just give us a really brief background and biography of your life and how you got here?
Warren Mundine:
You’re right, and it sort of fits in with my book. I wanted to tell a story about Australia, and I used my family as that journey from 1840 when Europeans first come up to the Clarence Valley and set up cattle stations and that, well, in those days it was sheep, but it failed and they got cattle stations and my family had worked on those stations for many years, many decades. We were a very poor and humble type people. Like my father, and that used to live in Humpies. You’ve seen photos of Humpies and stuff like that. I got some great photos.
Daniel Wild:
Was that like a swag, is it or what’s a humpy?
Warren Mundine:
A humpy is like an aboriginal structure, which you live and sleep in. And so that was their lives and how… And because they worked on cattle stations, the cattle owners, especially if they’d been in the family for a number of years, they had some incredible archives. And so I’ve got this amazing photos of my father and my grandparents and so on, living in his aboriginal comu… Life, lifestyle really.
And so we were a very poor family that worked in the cattle stations. And then my father come back after the Second World War and he was determined to get a house. And so he worked very hard for that. And this is where his unionism and Labor Party background comes from because it was AWU those days they gave us an aboriginal allowance.
So if you were a greater operator and you’re getting 100 dollars, my dad would get 40. And so he got a full salary and that helped him buy a house. That house wasn’t flash, it had two bedrooms, so it was my parents in one, my sisters in the other, and then us boys, we slept on the veranda. And then when my grandparents moved in, they then enclosed that and that’s how we lived. And in fact, I didn’t get my own bed until I was 14. I got hepatitis. And the things you have to do to get your own bed.
Daniel Wild:
Remember in your book, and your book is Warren Mundine in Black and White, which I recommend to all of our viewers is at all good bookstores. In your book, you say you had to share a bed with three brothers. And one of them wet the bed. That was the
Warren Mundine:
My younger brother, we used to beat him up every because we were laying in bed and especially… I don’t know, he chose winter when he did it, so it was just freezing cold and we’re going ugh. But yeah, he actually hasn’t forgiven me for that because he’ll be known throughout history as the bed wetter.
Daniel Wild:
Not one of the bed wetters that are in the liberal party?
Warren Mundine:
No, no, no. Anyway, but that my parents were very strong that because they had very limited education and my grandparents didn’t have any education, really. So they wanted us to have a better life. So they were very strong about education and very strong about working. And the work ethic. In fact, my father being a good old labor guy. He used to have the line that when I asked him, I say, “Well, how’s Bob?” And he’d say, “Well, Bob’s a working man.” Which had all his connotations about his work. He fed his family, he got a roof over their head, he’s getting them to school. Or he said, “He’s not a worker, which meant this bloke was lazy. He didn’t go to work, his family was never fed. They didn’t have a roof over their head and stuff like that.” So he was very strong, and he was a bit of a strange character because after dinner he used to clean the table down.
And of course I was number nine in a family, my older siblings would sit there and debate the daily activities and what’s happening in the newspaper. We didn’t have TV then. And which is probably obvious, we had 11 kids. But it was really… And I sat there as a young kid listening to those debates and those discussions and arguments.
So by the age of six or seven, I could actually tell you how the voting system of the Senate was, which probably I should have got my parents arrested for cruelty to children. So when I left school, I was always at 16. I finished year 10, they call it now, but in those days it was four form and did an apprenticeship in a factory in Silver Water. And I worked from there as a tradee, as a fitter in Turner.
But I was really determined to get a house just like my father. So I worked in a bar at night and on weekends I worked at a wedding reception area and that was able to get my deposit. And at 21, I bought my first home. And I went to a school that was really a trade training school. We had this grandiose idea of going to university. Then of course you had to do engineering because all the other stuff was crap. And that was sort of the vision of the school.
It wasn’t until I was about 25, I thought to myself, I want to really do something more in my life. And so that’s when I got did a program and got into the university. I went to the South Australian Institute of Technology, which is now the University of South Australia, did business and business management. And then I went there, went up for the ladder and all that type of stuff. But I spent a lot of time building gas pipelines and power stations and sewer lines and treatment works. So coming from that humble background, I’m able to relate to a lot of different people and situations. I use my life experience as well as my education experience about how I design and think about things.
Daniel Wild:
Now, it’s a fascinating life story, and as I say, I think your book, autobiography, Warren Mundine in Black and White is a great read. And if we look, fast-forward to today in terms of the issues facing our nation, one of the primary ones is the Voice to Parliament. And you’ve been at the forefront of this debate for a long time. In terms of the Voice to Parliament, I think a lot of people don’t actually understand what it is. If you are out in the street, most people would think you’re talking about John Farnham or the TV show. So what is it-
Warren Mundine:
A taxi driver told me that the other day, actually.
Daniel Wild:
Is that right? What did he say?
Warren Mundine:
I was sitting in the car and he looked at me and he said, “You looked familiar.” And I said, I’m Warren Mundine.” He goes, “Oh yeah, okay.” And I said, “What do you think about the voice?’ And he said, “I think it’s a good show.”
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, that’s right. So in terms of the Voice to Parliament, look, this is something that will be in our constitution. It’s a Canberra based bureaucracy and it doesn’t really have anything to do with recognition as such. So what are your views on the voice at a headline level?
Warren Mundine:
Well, you’re right. What it’s doing is conflating two ideas together. Now all Australians really want to see the benefits for Aboriginal people and the opportunities for Aboriginal people across this nation. And it’s really… So if you look at a survey and you ask, do you want to recognize Aboriginal Torres Strait Islands in the constitution? 90% tick. We want it to happen. But then they added this voice on in the end, which is a different matter.
Normally you would probably do that for a legislation and that would say you could change it and do different things with it and that, but by cementing it in the Constitution, this is not the way forward. We want practical outcomes, and I’ll talk about… When I say we, it’s about Australians as a whole. We want all our citizens to have the opportunities and have the benefits of the incredible liberal democracy that we have built here and the economic opportunities, which we punch above our weight on the global stage.
And so this voice is really, as you were saying, it is a Canberra bureaucracy. So where we moved from ’67 to get rid of all the discriminatory laws and stuff like that, and getting race out of the Constitution. And everyone being equal as citizens of this country now. And we’ve been driving forward for the last 50 years on that. Now we’re going to go back to those days and get aboriginals back under the… Putting race in the constitution and getting… Treating aboriginals with a huge bureaucracy was not going to help them.
Daniel Wild:
You mentioned 1967 and 90% of Australians voted to remove references to race, and about 90% want some recognition today in some form. So I think that a modest form of recognition would be the right way to honor the legacy of ’67. Instead, what Albanese is doing is putting forward a 51 49 proposition. Whether it gets up or not, it’s going to divide us because clearly 80 or 90% are not going to go along with his Canberra based Voice to Parliament. So are you worried that the Voice to Parliament has already divided us as in terms of a debate, and that division is only going to get worse?
Warren Mundine:
Well, and you’re right. People talk about this could divide the nation. In Actual fact that it already has. And we’ve seen that through the media. We’ve seen that across this country in commentary. This is what is happening. Because most people are sitting there going, why are we going down this road when all we want to do is work with people who have needs to get them to be a stronger part of the Australian community?
Now, look. I just find it bizarre that they’re going to this… The way they’re going about it. They shouldn’t have conflated them together, those two issues. And it puts suspicions in people’s minds. Because when you look at the 90%, when you start talking about the voice, it drops down to about 50%.
So even the wider Australian community are seeing, so what’s going on here? And then don’t… You’re not allowed to have information about it. They don’t talk about it and then they refer… They said, if you want to know about it, go and look at the [inaudible] review. And that’s a hun… 260 pages. 270 pages. who’s going to read that? No one’s going to read that unless they’re idiots like us, and which I did, I’ve read it.
Daniel Wild:
Gluttons for punishment.
Warren Mundine:
Gluttons with a gun. And then when you come out and you see all the flaws in that in report, they then say, “Oh, but that’s not the thing we’re going to base it on.” And so, well, what is it? And why… If you really want to unite the nation and bring us forward, you should be able to articulate that to the wider community. This is what we’re doing, this is what it’s all about, da da, da, da. But we don’t know.
Daniel Wild:
No, that’s right. You mentioned the Kama Langham report. You wrote a great article in The Australian a couple of days ago on this, and I just want to… I think the most arresting observation that you had was at the end of the piece. So I just want to quote a bit of that. What you said, and you say here I quote, “The Voice won’t be some grand meaningless gesture. It will be enormously costly and complex and there will be confusion and chaos in its development. And to what end? Aboriginal people need less bureaucracy in their lives, not more. A 24 member advisory body is just the tip of a very large iceberg that Australia is hurdling towards, like the Titanic.” End quote. Bureaucracy… I mean, there’s no shortage of aboriginal agencies, welfare and so forth. Tell us about the aboriginal bureaucracy issue and how The Voice will just add to that. Well,
Warren Mundine:
Leading at the ’67, because we are under the controls of each state had their own, what they called Aboriginal Aborigines Protection Act, and Aborigines welfare Boards. And they had a protector of Aborigines who controlled our lives from dawn to dust, from birth to death. And so this is one of the struggles after coming back after the second World War, and this was the interesting part.
What a lot of people don’t realize is that a lot of aboriginals served in that war to defend Australia and… Against the Germans and the Japanese. And when they come back to Australia, all of a sudden they went back to that segregated society. And it was one of the strange things with the military was the people, RSLs and other people who said, wait a minute, we just want to have a beer with our digger mates that we fought in Papua New Guinea with, or [inaudible] or something like that.
How come we can’t do that? And that’s where this campaign come for equality. And they wanted to get the race laws out and within… And after ’67, they all disappeared and everything was moving in the right direction. When I was a kid, we didn’t even know what a university was. And now 16,000 aboriginals in university at the moment.
Thousands of aboriginals who have graduated. They’re doctors and lawyers and accountants and engineers and tradies. They’ve done things at trade schools and that. Plumbers and people like myself fitter and turners and fitter mechanics and so on. So we’ve had this amazing drive forward. So when people say nothing’s been done. I don’t believe that. A lot of things have been done. I look at the Indigenous business program, which the coalition set up when I was a chairman to the Prime Minister Advisory Council for Abbott and Turnbull. 2015 Aboriginal business sector was 6.2 million dollars.
Eight years later, it’s 8.7 billion dollars. And this is the way forward. 45,000 jobs had been created. 37% of those jobs are in regional and remote Australia. You look at the mining industry, 7,000 aboriginals work in the mining industry. From skilled workers, tradies right up to engineers and mine supervisors and stuff like that. 2,300 businesses work in the mining industry.
You’ve got across Australia, 3,700 new Aboriginal businesses across the country. This is creating the future. And as anyone knows, if you look at history, economic development is the only way forward. You’ve got to get educated, you got to get an educated and skilled workforce. You’ve got to have bit… To get create jobs. You’ve got to have a commercial private sector which makes profits and hires people and does things. This is what we’ve done for the last 500 years of history. So it’s not rocket science. It’s very straightforward. And it doesn’t matter whether you’re an aboriginal or you’re a migrant who just come to this country or whatever. This is the way forward. Yeah.
Daniel Wild:
Oh, that’s right. And the only other thing I’d add is you also need law and order and community safety. And we’re seeing that in the Alice.
Warren Mundine:
Well, just on that too because, and this is one of the things that The Voice is never going to answer because, and this is why I believe Peter Dutton was right when he said, “Yes, we need to have recognition in the constitution.” But then we need, outside the Constitution for through legislation, where you have direct communications with the people on the regions and remote areas. Because this is where the issues are, the socioeconomic issues are. And you’re not going to correct them from Canberra or having a bureaucracy and people sitting around a committee room to solve those.
You actually have to get out there and get mud under your nails and a bit of dirt, and work with those communities to deal with those law and order issues. And then that will help investment coming into those communities. Why would I invest in a community with someone’s going to come along and throw rocks in my shop. And there’s going to be robberies and that. And so they’ve got to deal with these real issues.
Daniel Wild:
Some people, including the Prime Minister, have suggested that the voice to Parliament would’ve prevented the issues in the Alice. Do you agree with that?
Warren Mundine:
Well, I challenge him. If he really believes that, then why hasn’t he legislated today? Because in the constitution they can legislate to do that today. And why wait and because even if the voice gets up, it’s going to be two or three years after that, they said before they get the design work all in place to set it up. So why wait till 2025, 2026 when we know the problems exist now. If he truly believes it will be the panacea, put it in place now, legislate for it now. But I don’t think it will. All you’re going to end up with… And this is one of the problems of talking about looking at our culture.
Aboriginal people see themselves like your [inaudible] like me and other people like that. And through native title and land rights, what’s happened now is that they got a voice at the table and see… And a very important voice. And as we know, just recently we saw Andrew Forrest, one of the richest blokes in Australia who was stopped an irrigation project. He wanted to go forward because of those Aboriginal voices on the ground. So we have those voices now. We just need to be working and build at the capacity of those people out there in those communities. And making their communities safe and economically prosperity.
Daniel Wild:
One of the other myths, and you talked about 10 myths in a widely shared article you had in the Daily Telegraph recently, and the one I like the most is that Aboriginal people have asked for the voice in the Uluru statement. Now the only way they got to a consensus on the Uluru statement is by kicking people out of the convention they had who didn’t agree. So that’s an interesting way of getting consensus, but also-
Warren Mundine:
It takes me back my own labor days.
Daniel Wild:
That’s right. That’s exactly right. And related to that, you were in Canberra a couple of weeks ago with 22 Indigenous community leaders, including Senator Price, Senator Disinter Price. Now my understanding is no one from the Labor Party heard your voices. I don’t think the Prime Minister came to hear your voices. So this is not about all Aboriginal voices, is it? It’s a certain subset.
Warren Mundine:
Well, that’s exactly right. We brought people down from remote communities like Nocca and other places around Australia, and the only people who didn’t meet them was the Greens and the Labor government.
Daniel Wild:
What about the Prime Minister wasn’t there?
Warren Mundine:
The Prime Minister was there everyone was there. It was a sitting of parliament. The interesting thing was even Linda Bernie, who is the minister for Indigenous Australians, but she didn’t want to hear the voice of Indigenous Australians.
Daniel Wild:
I think technically in her title, she has a bracket at the end saying only some.
Warren Mundine:
Only some. What’s the old saying? All pigs are equal, except some pigs are more equal than others.
Daniel Wild:
That’s right.
Warren Mundine:
And you’re right. So what happened in that they had 13 dialogues around Australia. It was by invitation only. So people like myself and other people weren’t invited or Disinter Price or other people. And then they selected the people who go to the 250 people who go to Yalata in Central Australia, just down the road from the Uluru Rock. And they made the decisions about what was the whole thing was about. So when they say Aboriginal people ask for this, it was Aboriginal people who were invited who think like us because we want consensus on this, and we got this nice package that if… You want that you got to agree to. And of course some people didn’t, so they got kicked out.
Daniel Wild:
One of the other myths, opponents of the voice are racist. You said here, I’m quoting the New Daily Telegraph article-
Warren Mundine:
Yeah,
Daniel Wild:
I’m Aboriginal and of Campaign for Aboriginal Rights all my life. I oppose the voice. Am I racist? Are you racist, Warren, because you’re opposing the voice?
Warren Mundine:
Well, obviously because the Prime Minister and Dan Andrews and Linda Bernie and the whole voice campaign have said that. So it’s quite obvious, I am. Look, I just find that this is a stupidity of the campaign. It is almost like the… And I’m not going to get the quote right, but the Margaret Thatcher, when someone abuses you and tries to hurt you with that abuse, then obviously they’ve run out of ideas and they’ve run out how to debate and prosecute their case. So they’re losing credibility.
Look on our side, I got my niece, she’s CEO of Reconciliation Australia, love of the deaf, she’s on the Yes campaign. People say to me, “Do you have cold Christmas dinners?” And I say, “No, we love each other.” And we do. And a lot of people on the other side I worked with over the years and are very good friends with them.
So I don’t want to get into this stupidity about, you know, you’re a bad person and you… What we want to do is have a mature debate. Each people… Each person prosecute their cause and what they believe in.
And I believe that we will win that debate. And this is why they’re scared and they’re abusing us. Because you look at the lawyers who are advising the Yes campaign, they’re all split. They’re all over the place. They sit there and go, oh, it’s the worst thing that could ever happen, but I’m going to vote for it. Some of them really surprised me that they’ve got more positions than a person in a Twister game. They’re all over the place and they still stand up and say, “Yes, it’s dreadful to shocking. It’s going to end up in court for the next 100 years or 10 years or whatever.” And then they go, “Oh, but we’re still going to vote for it.”
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, that’s right. Well, former high court justice Ian Canahan said that this is going to be at least a decade of litigation in his opinion. Because if something’s in the Constitution, the high court of Australia’s going to be involved. Albanese say you’re not allowed to do that because we have the separation of powers. The government can’t tell the court what it can and can’t do because that would challenge the whole idea of impartial application of law. So yeah, there’s no doubt this is going to be in the courts.
Warren Mundine:
Well, that’s what the high court’s for. The legislator makes the laws and that’s… They get their powers from the Constitution and the high court then tests whether that meets the constitutional standards. So no matter what legislation or what policy that comes out, it will be challengeable. And then the high court will make their decisions on that. And we’ve seen that in a number of cases across Australia where they have made their decisions about what they do. So this bizarre thing, I had this debate on the radio show, and they said, “Well, in the Carmen Langton thing, it says they won’t be able to take it to court.” And I said, “Yes, but the constitutional lawyers say you will be able to take it to court.” And I said, “Oh, but in the Carmen Langton thing.” He says, “You want…” I said, “That’s fine. As much as I respect Tom Karma and Marcia Langton, they are not constitutional lawyers. So I’ take my brief from the lawyers.”
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, no. That’s a good way of putting it, I think. Look, we know that there are a decent number of people in the community who do support the voice in some way, shape, or form. We know that that support is declining. But I’m interested in your perspective of why are there people who support the voice? Is it because they believe it’s the right thing to do in the context of recognition and they don’t really understand what it’s about? Why do you think they support it?
Warren Mundine:
That’s one of the big ones. They’re decent people and Australians are great people, despite what some people say about us. We’re not a bunch of racists. It is about that very… A lot of people want to do the… They want to do the right thing, and they want the recognition of Aboriginal and entire Strait Islands and the first people of this country. And everyone’s on board with that. And this is where I think the trickery of it is that the government understands that. So now they stuck this thing underneath it, and then they just talk about, “Oh, don’t you want to recognize aboriginals?” And of course the answer is, yes, we do. And I say, “Yeah, well, you should tick yes.” Yeah. underneath that is this hidden thing. Which we don’t know about. So I don’t chastise or pick on people who are voting for the yes, because that’s a majority of them think that way.
And it’s a good way to think. But when you start talking about what comes under that, that’s when they go, “Maybe why don’t they separate it?” Or otherwise we’re going to have to vote No. And so that’s one group of people there. And the other group of people, they believe the rhetoric that’s out there, that it’s a nice thing to do. It’s a good thing to do. And it’s all lovey-dovey stuff. And especially the young people fall for that and they think, okay, we’ve got a dreadful history and all that type of thing. Well, I always say that there’s no country in the world that had a good beginning. Name me a country that’s had a good beginning, but it’s not about rating the people on country on that past. It’s about what is that country doing today and moving forward and making a better future for everyone who lives in this country.
And we all forget that there’s 26 million other people who have come to this country as migrants and through the colonial period and have contributed to this. Look at this, we live in this brilliant… We’re rated very high in the OECD on economics and education and stuff like that. Well… And health and things. And it was these people who come to this country and worked in the factories and worked on the roads and worked at… Worked in the retail stores and everything. And made this country great. And worked in the mines and so on. So we’re heading in a great direction, and I’d like to see that continue. Now, are we perfect? I don’t know a perfect country in the world, but at least we’re trying.
Daniel Wild:
Look, I know you’re a busy man and you’ve got some other campaign events to attend to today. So I just want to finish on a couple of final questions if that’s okay. One of the claims made about the voice is that, look, it’s only going to be involved in a small set of issues directly relevant to Indigenous Australians. But as we know, Indigenous Australians are Australians. So you can’t really quarantine. Oh, it’s only these set of things. It’s really going to be involved in everything, isn’t it?
Warren Mundine:
Well, that’s the funny thing. Look, don’t listen to my words. Listen to what the Yes campaign is saying. Professor Megan Davis. And Mel Pearson. And that. Were now asked questions about it, they said, well, they said, and I remember that the ABC with Patricia Carvelles who was trying to push it in that direction, when she asked the question. And he just said, “Well, it’s taxation and it’s this and it’s this and that.” And then Megan Davis said, well, a professor of law New South Wales University, she said, “It’s everything. Aboriginals are Australian citizens. So everything affects a state.” So that goes right across all the legislations and all the policies that are coming out of governments. And then of course, professor Greg Craven said, “It will be… They’ll have a say in policing. They’ll have a say in traffic fines. They’ll have a say in defense, they’ll have a say in everything.”
Of course, as Australian citizens, this is the other myth that aboriginals aren’t in the Constitution as Australian citizens, we’re in that constitution. Like very other Australian is we. And we’d just like to have that recognition. But setting another layer of governance is not the way to move forward. We’ve got a beautiful Westminster liberal democracy system that works. I think we’ve got one of the best legal systems in the world. I think we’ve got one of the best democracies in the world. We’ve definitely got one of the best economies in the world. And we’ve done great things over 200 years, 220 years. And we’ve got rid of all the race laws 50 years ago. And everyone is treated equal before the law. And I think we need to continue that journey.
Daniel Wild:
And just one last question. This sort of goes to the issue of veto power. I know there’s a debate about whether it will have a formal veto power or effective one. Anthony Albanese at the Gamma Festival, in a interview with David Spears on ABC Insiders said it would only be a very brave government that would go against the voice to parliament’s advice. That’s a veto power to me. What’s your opinion of how it would operate.
Warren Mundine:
Everyone… Look, this idea that they won’t have veto power, of course in the law doesn’t say that, but the pressure of reality and as the Prime Minister said, would be a very brave minister not to… And we… To agree to it. And we saw that just recently. There’s evidence of that. So of course Mark Drevis, the attorney General, the solicitor general, went to that design committee and said, “If we go down this track, it’s going to open it up to all these other issues.” And they just said, “Tough. We want that.”
And they argued and argued over it for weeks, and the Prime Minister stepped in and said, “Let them have it.” So we’ve already got evidence that that’s what’s going to happen. And that’s another thing about traditional owner aboriginal communities. They’re worried now when they do agreements with governments and companies, mining companies, and about projects.
So a bridge gets built or this gets built and a mine site gets set up or whatever. That’s just that the discussion between those groups for it to happen. They’re worried now that you will now have people who will be able to go to Canberra, third party people, which we call them in the mining industry, which is the Greens, and other people who are anti projects. They’ll be able to go to the voice and say, “Hey, fellows da, da, da ,da.” And then they’ll put pressure on the minister for resources and that not to tick off these projects.
Daniel Wild:
Warren, that’s a great place to leave it. So thank you for your time with us. Thank you for your leadership and everything you’ve done for Australia and for your contribution to the debate on the voice.
Warren Mundine:
Thank you very much.
This transcript of Free Voices from 30 April 2023 with Warren Mundine has been edited for clarity.
