Caleb Bond:
Caleb Bond in for Paul tonight. Joining me now, One Nation National Executive Manager Lee Hanson and the IPA’s Deputy Executive Director Daniel Wild. Good to see you both.
Now, this carry-on about whether or not we’ve been asked to send a boat to the Strait of Hormuz, it just keeps going on. Of course, Trump keeps saying that he’s asked for help. The government keeps saying that we haven’t been asked for help. Someone is lying in amongst this.
Obviously, you would have seen this from Donald Trump at the end of the week. I’m not sure if that grab… here’s the grab.
Donald Trump:
Well, I’m not happy with Australia because they were not-
Journalist:
Why specifically?
Donald Trump:
… because they were not there when we asked them to be there. So Australia-
Journalist:
What did you ask for?
Donald Trump:
… Australia was another one. They were not there having to do with Hormuz, the Hormuz Strait.
Caleb Bond:
Sorry, I wasn’t staring into the abyss there. I was just waiting for the tech to catch up with me, I’m moving too fast, obviously.
But Sarah Henderson this morning was on Outsiders talking about this. She is suggesting that our relationship with the US is “in tatters.” Take a look.
Sarah Henderson:
The prime minister is going cap-in-hand to Singapore and Malaysia. Why is he not speaking with the United States? Our relationship is in tatters. Australians can rightly not have trust in this government. This relationship has deteriorated very badly, and that, of course, is indicative in the fact that we have not gone to the United States for support for our fuel security.
Caleb Bond:
Daniel, do you think “in tatters” is correct or is it too far?
Daniel Wild:
Well, certainly at a low ebb, you’d have to say, since World War II. And I don’t believe that we need to kowtow to everything that President Trump says he wants or that he demands of us, but we also need to have political leaders that look beyond just the current president and understand that if we want to be a reliable ally, if we want to be able to get something in return for our alliance with the United States, then we have to be able to offer something ourselves.
And one of the problems we have is a prime minister who’s very political. He’s a very effective politician, a very effective leader of a political party, but he’s certainly not a statesman. And quite often he’ll play the Donald Trump card, which is always going to work domestically in Australia. But what we need are leaders that look beyond the current president and actually put our interests ahead.
And we’ve also seen the failures when it comes to defence spending, which is paltry. Now they’re trying to do accounting tricks to make it sound bigger than what it actually is. Look, this is an issue that’s not going to go away, and you could say certainly that the current alliance is at a low ebb.
Caleb Bond:
Last week, Lee, I was talking to Michael Shoebridge, and his suggestion was that all this business about Trump keeps saying he’s asked for a boat, and we keep saying that we haven’t been asked for a boat. Shoebridge was basically saying that he reckons we’ve sent the message ahead to the US and said, “Please don’t ask us because we don’t have anything to give you.”
And so it’s probably technically correct that we haven’t been asked for a boat, but it’s because we’ve asked them not to ask us. And so what Trump is essentially trying to do is smoke us out and calling us out for it.
The reality is, though, someone is lying. Either Trump is making it up that we’ve been asked when we haven’t been, or the government is making it up and saying that we haven’t been asked when in fact we have. Who are we meant to believe?
Lee Hanson:
Correct, Caleb. Someone is lying, and we’re not being honest and transparent about it. But one thing is very clear: Albanese, or our current government, is not focused or prioritising a strong relationship with the USA. That’s pretty evident, we can see that. Instead, Albanese is too focused on strengthening the relationship with China.
I agree with you, Dan, completely, you need to look beyond the current political period. And this is where our current politicians do fail, and fail enormously. You need to have long-term vision. Who are our allies? If we are in a position where we need help, that is the USA. And this imbalance, or this relationship that we are putting at risk, is also risking the AUKUS deal as well.
So yes, it’s not clear, but I suspect I know who I believe, because I don’t have trust and honesty in our current prime minister when we know he’s backflipped and not been transparent on multiple things.
Caleb Bond:
Well, indeed, you’re probably not the only one, which is interesting when you look at these polls that have come out tonight. So there’s a new poll from Resolve, there’s a new Newspoll. Basically, it would seem there’s been no great change in support for the Prime Minister. In fact, he’s up a little bit in the Newspoll when it comes to his favorability, or the satisfaction in the job he’s doing, which I thought was a bit odd in light of the politics around the fuel crisis.
One of the other things that’s in this, Lee, is that One Nation is down a couple of points in the Resolve polls. So you’ve gone from 24% to 22 on primary. And in the Newspoll, you’re also down too, from 26 to 24%. There’s been a small uptick for the Coalition in the Resolve poll, from 22 to 23%. Of course, it’s still higher than you were at the start of the year, but does this concern you at all?
Lee Hanson:
Oh golly, gosh, no. One Nation aren’t focused on the polls. And look, you can cherry-pick polls, Caleb. Two days ago, was it Demos that released a poll, and we were neck-and-neck with Labour. So which one do you want to believe?
We’re focused on policies. We’re focused on long-term vision and the best outcome for this country and for Australians. That is where we’re focused on, not the polls.
But what did concern me about this poll that you referred to, which really isn’t a surprise, is the struggle and the adjustments people are having to make to their current lives due to the fuel-crisis situation that we have here in the country. When you’ve got, was it 27%, that are having to make adjustments to their groceries and spending, that worries me enormously, because typically that would mean: what about the lower socioeconomic? The people that are struggling already to pay their bills.
Mortgages are increasing, rents are increasing, they can’t get to work in some cases. And great, public transport’s increased where you can access public transport, but a lot of people don’t have that option. Me, myself personally, where I live, there’s zero public transport available to me. So people are struggling, and it’s only going to get worse.
Caleb Bond:
Well, 79%, Daniel, have changed their driving habits in some way, their transport habits, 58% saying that they are driving less. So I think people made these decisions before we put out an ad campaign, but that’s by the by.
I’m interested going back to the point I made earlier, though, that it doesn’t seem to be affecting the government or the prime minister in the polls at all. I would have thought that there’d be a little bit of blow back to all of this, but in fact, Labour has increased its primary in the polls, and there’s no great change, in fact, a little bit of an uptick in satisfaction of the prime minister.
Daniel Wild:
Oh, I think the reason it may not have hurt the government that much, or as much as you might expect, is because most people, I think, blame the war and they blame Trump. They don’t necessarily blame the government, so that would be a part of it.
The other interesting part from the poll, Caleb, is the Coalition’s vote has either gone up or basically held steady, which sort of suggests that maybe it’s bottomed out by now. And I think there’s two words that would explain that, and that’s Matt Canavan. I think his elevation to the nationals leadership has made all of the difference.
And the polling does not parse out the Liberal versus the National vote because they’re all back together in a Coalition now, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was the Nationals vote that’s come up a bit, and that would largely be because of the leadership of Matt Canavan. I think he’s taken to that position like a duck to water, and he’s really taken on the debate. You might have seen him on the ABC taking the host to task, quite rightly, on net zero and policies like that.
So from a political standpoint, you’d have to say that that switch to Canavan is probably paying off.
Caleb Bond:
Yeah, indeed. And that’s exactly what they noted, that the support for the Nats, or the favorability for the Nats, has actually gone up significantly since Matt Canavan has taken over.
Obviously during the week, and this is something that Canavan had been talking about last week and foreshadowing, the immigration policy that the Coalition would put out. We saw that from Angus Taylor during the week. It does seem, though, that a bit of the detail is missing, and of course they’re suggesting that that will come at a later point.
Andrew Clennell pressed Jonathan Duniam on this this morning. Take a look.
Andrew Clennell:
How many extra people will get kicked out of Australia or have visas cancelled?
Jonno Duniam:
Well, I don’t think you can put a number on that. If we’re doing our job properly and stopping the bad eggs from coming in, then it would be a minimal number.
Andrew Clennell:
Well, is it thousands of people? Is it hundreds of people? How wide-reaching would it be? You put together the policy. Have you put any thought to this?
Jonno Duniam:
Well, again, there’s a number of parts to the policy we’ve put out thus far. It’s very hard to put a number on these things.
Caleb Bond:
It might be hard to put a number on things, Lee, but that’s kind of the job. We want to talk about numbers, we saw the story during the week. There are 77,000-odd people in this country at the moment illegally. Their visas have expired, or they’re not meant to be here.
Last year, or last financial year, I think it was, we cancelled some 5,000 visas, and we only deported one-and-a-half thousand people. We’ve got numbers. We know where things are sitting. So why can’t they say, “Yep, we’re going to round them up and send them home”?
I get they might be scared, “Oh, we don’t want to look like ICE in the US,” but you’ve actually got to do something about it.
Lee Hanson:
Spot on, you need to do something about it. And look, the reports are saying 77,000, but I’ve heard reports, and it’s anticipated it’s even more than that and could be reaching up to 100,000 people that are in this country that have outstayed their visas.
And there’s a few components to it, because it depends on the individuals and where they come from, the countries and their visa status, admittedly. Will they accept their citizens back? So we have compounding factors as to why they are not being deported and the government isn’t cracking down on it. They’re not doing enough about it.
So then, when you look at the Coalition’s, or the Liberal Party’s, immigration policy, where’s the detail? How are they going to unpack this and tackle it? Where are the numbers? And to be honest, they’re just taking One Nation’s lead. They’re trying to win back the One Nation votes that they’ve leaked and lost because they haven’t led with conviction and they haven’t led with strength.
But the reality is: great that they’ve gone halfway in on this immigration policy without the detail, but will they actually follow through with it? Will they carry through it when they haven’t in the past? So we shall wait and see.
Caleb Bond:
The other thing, Daniel, is we’ve waited a long time for it. Maybe if the Coalition had come out with this sort of thing six, eight months ago, we wouldn’t be in the position that we are now with an insurgent One Nation. Immigration has been one of the big issues that’s driven this. I’m glad they got there eventually, kind of, but it’s taken a hell of a long time.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, it’s taken a while, but it’s a very good policy what the Coalition has put forward. I think it’s one of the best policies the Coalition has had in about a decade, and there’s several components to it. There’s cutting the numbers, there’s deporting people who shouldn’t be here, and there’s actually having a mechanism by which you can enforce Australian values and deport people if they’re not adhering to them.
Look, I accept that there’s details, and Andrew Clennell is fair enough to ask about the details, but at least we’re finally having this debate. This is the debate that we should have been having, like you sort of alluded to, for many years. We’re finally having it.
And I think it’s a very strong policy. Sure, there could be more details, I think that they need to go a bit further in certain components, but we’re finally talking about Australian values as being a precursor as to whether somebody can come into this country, and we’re going to be able to deport people who don’t adhere to those values.
It’s astonishing at how this debate has opened up so much. You could not say these kind of things a year ago, or even six months ago. So I think those of us who are deeply concerned about immigration and the issues that come with it, this is a very welcome development, and I think it’s a very strong policy.
Caleb Bond:
Lee, I see you remonstrating this.
Lee Hanson:
Dan, Dan, what do you mean we haven’t been able to talk about this? One Nation had been saying this for how long now? So I’m confused. This is, in part, a carbon copy of One Nation’s policy. We have been talking about assimilation and values alignment, with the right people coming into this country and adding value. One Nation have been talking about this.
I’m confused. What do you mean this hasn’t been an issue that we’ve been able to talk about, or a party hasn’t been leading that? One Nation has. I’m dumbfounded by your comment. Sorry, but I am.
Daniel Wild:
Well, you make a very fair… well, it’s a very fair point. But I will say, I think when I last looked, One Nation’s policy was 130,000 net overseas migration, which is quite a large number. We released polling that had 79% of Australians want it below 100,000. So I think that’s very much the direction we need to be going in.
But sure, I think One Nation has played a very key role in this debate, and a lot of other debates as well. And I think it’s welcome that the Coalition’s there. Even Labour has been pretending that they care about this. I’m not sure that they actually care about it, but I’m just happy to see the political system as a whole is finally debating this topic.
Caleb Bond:
100%. And it has needed to be debated for a long time. Finally, the mainstream is moving with it, and One Nation has been a large part of allowing that to happen.
Lee, I just want to ask you very quickly before we go: what the hell is going on down in your state of Tassie with this greyhound-racing ban, or potential greyhound-racing ban? The behaviour of the Rockliff government, a Liberal government, trying to ban greyhound racing during the week, pulling the bill because they worked out that they wouldn’t get the votes.
And I just feel so sorry for hardworking people in the industry in Tasmania who deserve to have some certainty about what their job status is going to look like. And the government goes, “No, because we don’t have the political support for it yet, we’re going to make you wait another month to find out.” Come on.
Lee Hanson:
It’s heartbreaking for them, isn’t Caleb? People are at knife’s edge here waiting, their livelihoods, their jobs, the impact, and particularly in rural and regional areas of Tasmania.
This was purely a bend-at-the-knee situation from the Rockliff Liberal government to the teal and green crossbench to ensure that they maintained power. That was purely a political play, that they backflipped and threw the greyhound industry under the bus after the last, or leading up to the last, state election.
So now the inquiry that actually happened showed zero evidence of any animal cruelty here in the greyhound industry in Tasmania. So to do this to them now, because they knew that some of the Upper House members were asking questions and whatever information post this inquiry, “We’ll just back off and we’ll just wait until we can get enough support.”
Like you’ve said before: greyhound industry, what’s next? Because it won’t stop it there. The pure agenda is to get rid of all racing industries, but there is zero concern for the impact on real, live people, jobs, livelihoods. And that’s what I’m fighting for here in Tasmania.
Caleb Bond:
And when you see Liberal governments teaming up with the Greens, my God, you ought to be scared, ought to be absolutely scared. Thank you to both of you, Lee Hanson, Daniel Wild.
This transcript of Daniel Wild on Paul Murray Live Sky News Australia from 19 April 2026 has been edited for clarity.
