In this interview, Adam Creighton appeared on The Rita Panahi Show – Sky News Australia to discuss the IPA’s research on the cost of prisons.
All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.
Below is a transcript of the interview.
Rita Panahi:
Joining me now for more on this is Chief Economist at the Institute of Public Affairs, Adam Creighton. Adam, this is a terrible mess, I would argue a self-inflicted mess. How much longer can Sussan Ley remain at the helm with these numbers?
Adam Creighton:
Well, probably until the end of the year, I would say. Look, it’s been six months almost since the election. The review is still going. We still don’t really know where they stand on immigration.
Rita Panahi:
Multiple reviews.
Adam Creighton:
That’s right, multiple reviews. We don’t really know where the coalition stands on immigration. Well, actually, sorry, the Liberal Party. We know the National Party. The Liberal Party, we don’t know. And same with Net Zero. So no wonder they’re in the doldrums. And I think it makes sense that One Nation’s doubled their support because they do have strong views on those two issues. In fact, Pauline Hanson spoke at CPAC in Brisbane just a few weeks ago, and it was a fantastic speech. It was very forthright. It was very charismatic. And it actually just got me thinking, she’s probably the most famous politician in Australia now.
Rita Panahi:
Oh, absolutely.
Adam Creighton:
And I think that that actually matters. I mean, Sussan Ley, I mean, I think there was a survey a few months ago. I think 40% of Australians didn’t know who she was. So that doesn’t help-
Rita Panahi:
… know you help her approval ratings, to be honest with you, her net approval rating is not good. 31% of voters were satisfied with Sussan Ley’s performance, 51% dissatisfied. So again, trailing the Prime Minister, that’s to be expected. That brings me to Andrew Hastie. He’s denied reports that he wants to contest the liberal leadership, saying he backed Sussan Ley and that his decision to step down from the liberal front bench was about his freedom to express his views on immigration policy, not setting up a leadership spill. Adam, I can only hope for the sake of the Liberal Party and the sake of the country that’s not accurate.
Adam Creighton:
Yeah, look, and it’s probably not accurate, I would say. I mean, he’s probably hoping for a brighter future at the head of the party at some point, but he’s done the honourable thing, I think, he stood back. I think there’s a 40, $50,000 pay cut involved in that actually. So it’s not like there is no personal sacrifice, there is for him. And of course, it’s less prestigious and so on, but I think it’s already working. I think two other backbenchers, is it Ben Small, I think, and Henry Pike have already said that they support him on immigration or net-zero. So there is a groundswell of support, I think amongst the younger members of the Liberal Party in Parliament. I think it’s a generational thing. I mean, Sussan’s been there for, what, 25 years? She’s very much the old guard, I think.
Rita Panahi:
Exactly. What has she achieved in 25 years?
Adam Creighton:
Well, that’s a very good question. And look, she seems a nice lady, but I don’t know what she stands for.
Rita Panahi:
I have an inkling that much of what she stands for would be far more comfortably in the TealS or-
Adam Creighton:
Probably.
Rita Panahi:
Probably labour, she is known for her backflips, but the initial position she often takes is entirely wrong for a centre-right coalition.
Adam Creighton:
I think that’s right.
Rita Panahi:
And you look at the Liberal Party now, their best talent is on the backbench, including Senator Price. And if you’ve got a hasty price ticket that is very-
Adam Creighton:
[inaudible 00:02:57].
Rita Panahi:
… attractive, I would think, to the electorate, but should certainly do the right thing here and step down as opposed to ripping up the party, having a leadership battle that’s going to be very damaging and divisive naturally.
Adam Creighton:
Look, it’s a difficult question that, I mean, history suggests that she won’t because most people like being leader and they don’t like leaving that position. It’s also a much higher salary too. I might add. That’s another thing, but that is a factor. We don’t think of those things, but it is a factor and they get lots of staff, lots of prestige. I mean, at one point in time I worked, not for the leader, the leader of the opposition, and it was like, I think we had 45 staff in the office. It’s a pretty big operation, so she’ll probably want to hang around. I would say that’s my guess.
Rita Panahi:
She’s enjoying it.
Adam Creighton:
And maybe that’s good though for Andrew too because does he really want it right now or does he want it closer to the next election?
Rita Panahi:
Well, there is a lot of conjecture about that, a lot of political pundits saying it’s too early to challenge. He should do it closer to the election. I’ve got to say I disagree. I think they have so much ground to make up. There is so much work to be done that it needs to happen as soon as possible. This notion that you can just come in with a few months to go and have a honeymoon period and win an election when you’ve got a gap that exists at the moment. And really, the Liberals need to communicate to the electorate who they are, what they stand for, what their policies are, and that takes time to do properly.
And I think people take the electorate for granted. They’re a lot more informed and smarter than I think most politicians give them credit for. Now, let’s talk about the Institute of Public Affairs. The organisation has just released some new research about prison costs in Australia revealing that governments are spending over 6.8 billion per year on jail facilities with the average cost of housing a single prisoner blowing out to $159,000 per annum. That is an enormous average cost. What else did you find with this?
Adam Creighton:
Yeah, look, it’s a fascinating piece of research by my colleague Mia Schlicht. And one of the main takeaways was that 37% of people behind bars are actually there for non-violent crimes. And so that’s $160,000 each. It’s very expensive. It does beg the question, surely there are better ways to punish those people and to bring them back into the community. So that was one of the takeouts. And also, we also found that Victoria actually has the most room in their jails by far. And you’ll probably joke that because I don’t put anyone in them. But that is an opportunity for the state to actually take criminals from other states because the other states are much… They’re struggling to find room in their prisons.
Rita Panahi:
I think that is going to shock a lot of Victorians that we’ve got so many empty beds in prisons because the cost is ridiculous. It should not cost that much. And you can see in other countries how they’ve reduced those costs. But when you’ve got a crime riddled state, how can we have… I thought that one of the reasons why people weren’t being locked up was we just didn’t have the facilities, because when’s the last time we built-
Adam Creighton:
Yeah, well, they certainly do. They certainly do have the facilities. In fact, I think there are new facilities that are barely used in Victoria.
Rita Panahi:
Oh, fantastic.
Adam Creighton:
But you’re right, the incarceration rate is substantially lower than New South Wales, substantially lower than Queensland. I mean, it’s noticeable. And as you say, that’s unusual because there is a lot of crime here now.
Rita Panahi:
Well, I can understand though, when you’ve had just a labour rule for so long and Labour Attorney Generals appointing judges who are like-minded, who’ve got a very so-called progressive view of the criminal justice.
Adam Creighton:
Yes. Well, we’ve seen some of that recently.
Rita Panahi:
… absolutely preoccupied with the rights of offenders as opposed to reducing crime. Now, Clementine Ford, I know she’s one of your favourite-
Adam Creighton:
Oh, definitely.
Rita Panahi:
… feminist activist troll Clementine Ford. Well, she’s planning to launch her own social media app after her Facebook and Instagram accounts were deleted by Meta. Now, I’m not exactly sure why this happened. She has a lot of extreme commentary. Recently though she has had a lot of extreme commentary on the assassination of Charlie Kirk. She even mocked Charlie’s grieving widow, Erika. We talked about that on this programme. And as Steve Jackson notes in The Australian today, Clementine Ford thought it was fine to gloat over a great man’s brutal death. But people laughing at her Instagram page being deleted are apparently just beyond the [inaudible 00:07:36]. She’s the real victim here.
Adam Creighton:
No, she’s just a horrible person. And actually, I really wish that Meta had not cancelled the accounts because that means she’s in the news. That means we have to look at her and we have to hear her and we have to read her. And it’s a real struggle. She’s definitely not my favourite person. I think she’s awful. I’m sure she feels the same about me, [inaudible 00:07:53] mutual. But she’s got nothing of real value to add. Just as you said earlier, extremely vitriolic comments, but I think for its own sake.
Rita Panahi:
I disagree. I think sunlight is the best disinfectant, I don’t support… Unless someone is openly inciting violent.
Adam Creighton:
Oh yeah, certainly they shouldn’t take it.
Rita Panahi:
And that’s against the law. So that becomes a criminal matter. I want the left to show just how ugly and deranged they have become. Because she does have an enormous following. You look at her numbers on Instagram and Facebook, she certainly had a following, and also she was doing great work for [inaudible 00:08:36].
Adam Creighton:
[inaudible 00:08:36].
Rita Panahi:
My God, I could have just had a whole Clementine Ford section, but then that probably-
Adam Creighton:
Well, you’ll have to join her new app.
Rita Panahi:
No, thank yo. Adam, before you go, let’s have a look at Greta Thunberg’s latest bit of activism. Of course, she’s become an anti-Israeli activist these days, and the Swedish people have had enough. They’re calling on the Israelis to hold onto her.
Greta Thunberg:
My name is Greta Thunberg. I’m a citizen of Sweden. If you are watching this video, I have been abducted and taken against my will by Israeli forces. Our humanitarian mission was non-violent and abiding by international law. Please tell my government to demand my and the others’ immediate release.
Joakim Lamotte:
My name is Joakim Lamotte and I’m a Swedish citizen. If you see this video, Greta Thunberg has been abducted by Israeli forces, and I have a message from the Swedish people to the Israeli government. “Please keep her. We have had her so many years in Sweden and we cannot stand it anymore.”
Rita Panahi:
I guess that is an opinion that might be shared by a few Swedes, but let’s never forget that little activist, that little Goblin was lecturing people at the UN, lecturing world leaders, policies were made based on her activism.
Adam Creighton:
Yeah, look, she’s certainly annoyed so many people over a long period of time. And actually, I think when she got involved at first I thought, “Gosh, the Palestinians are surely thinking, please, no, please don’t support us. Please, please do something else.” Because I don’t think it’s helped them at all because she’s so annoying. And I think a lot of people that always see her, they’re like, “Oh, well, if she’s supporting it, it can’t be a good cause.”
Rita Panahi:
No. And being a little doom goblin, climate change is the natural area of activism for her. We need her to get back involved in that.
Adam Creighton:
Get back to climate, please.
Rita Panahi:
Chain herself to tractors or whatever else she wants to do. Adam Creighton, thank you so much for your time.
This transcript of Adam Creighton talking on The Rita Panahi Show – Sky News Australia from 6 October 2025 has been edited for clarity.
