Rita Panahi:
Joining me now is Deputy Executive Director at the Institute of Public Affairs, Daniel Wild. Dan, what do you make of John Howard’s criticism of Cory Bernardi? I think it’s rather ill-informed and harsh to say Bernardi is not somebody who wants to seriously contribute to policy. After all, Bernardi recognised early on that the liberals were drifting away from their base. He tried to start the Conservative Party, didn’t work out, but he recognised this trend before many others.
Daniel Wild:
That’s right. Look, I like both John Howard and Cory Bernardi, so I’ll let them duke it out themselves. But certainly I think it’s a bit harsh to say that he doesn’t want to make a contribution. He has made a contribution in the past and he has been willing to engage in debates where a lot of people weren’t willing to do that. So I think he needs to be respected for that. I think John Howard’s point about the policies is half right and half wrong. And I think he’s a bit off the mark to say that One Nation is just a grievance party. What Australians are looking for, One Nation’s gone from 10 to 25% in the poll. So that extra 15% that have come are different to the original 10%. I agree the original 10% maybe were mostly there for grievance reasons, which is totally fair enough by the way.
But you’ve got a different kind of people now that are getting behind One Nation and they want to see change in the system. They don’t want to see One Nation become joined to the hip with Liberal and National parties so that One Nation needs to be careful when they start talking about coalition forming because a lot of people say, “No, hang on a minute. The problem is the political establishment. We want you to shake it up.” So that-
Rita Panahi:
But if there isn’t a coalition, you’re just fracturing that centre-right vote and having Labour remain in power indefinitely because you need to organise those forces somehow. We do have a preferential system and it kind of lends itself to forming coalitions if you want to be elected.
Daniel Wild:
That is true, but a premature forming of a coalition will undermine the change we need in this country. And we saw that when the Liberal and National parties got back together the first time. I warned against it. And I understand people who said, “You can’t get into government unless you’re in coalition,” that’s true, but you’re not going to get into government unless you know what you stand for.
And you’ve got to figure that out first. So they have to get the fundamentals right. I also think One Nation has an opportunity to make a bigger play for lower house seats, not just the Senate. I think a lot of Australians are ambitious for One Nation to be able to … They’re not going to get into government themselves anytime soon, but if you look at what Reform has done, building that up when it was UKIP, it takes time, right? So I think these things need to be figured out first before any discussion of coalition forming takes place.
Rita Panahi:
And on Mr. Howard, and I think he’s not alone here, there’s other former Liberal leaders who are otherwise pretty sound, but they’ve got this anti-populist sentiment, which is really quite worrying because populist is just another word for democracy. And it’s what people want to see from their elected officials and it should not be railed against. It should actually be listened to.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah. And it only reinforces it. When you have former politicians that are railing against populist, well, that reinforces the populist vote because it proves it, proves the reason why people are voting that way. Now, I think that it’s … The thing about Howard was he was masterful at actually dealing with this himself. He had these same challenges when the Liberal Party was drifting to the left and he was able to bring it back to a more sensible position.
The reason why One Nation is doing so well is precisely because the Liberal Party is failing. If the Liberal Party was dealing with mass migration, if it was dealing with policies like net-zero, if it was standing up for Australian values, even with the Voice to Parliament, it took them forever to get to a vote-
Rita Panahi:
10 months.
Daniel Wild:
… to a “no” position. So you can’t just say, “I don’t like One Nation. I don’t like populist.” You’ve got to look at the Liberal Party has caused this fracturing to happen.
Rita Panahi:
They can’t even bring themselves, the Liberal Party, to say the words mass migration. You’ve got people within the party who think it’s a offensive term to be using-
Daniel Wild:
Including the immigration shadow.
Rita Panahi:
That’s a bit of a problem-
Daniel Wild:
That’s an issue.
Rita Panahi:
… isn’t it, Dan? Yes.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah.
Rita Panahi:
Now, Housing Minister Clare O’Neil was on Sky News earlier today and listen to her dismiss the idea that immigration, mass immigration, is the biggest factor in house prices going through the roof.
Kieran Gilbert:
One Nation, according to recent polls, leads when it comes to that issue of immigration. And part of it is the housing question, because people are saying, “Why are we bringing more people in when we can’t even house and young people can’t get into the market now?” You know they’re inextricably linked, those two issues, aren’t they?
Clare O’Neil:
Well, migration’s a piece of the puzzle. It’s certainly not the whole story.
Kieran Gilbert:
But politically, it’s a potent issue, isn’t it?
Clare O’Neil:
Well, we know it’s not the whole story because in COVID, we actually saw our population decline for the first time in 70 years and house prices absolutely went through the roof. So these things are not linear.
Rita Panahi:
Oh my gosh. Is the housing minister. It’s just such simplistic, economically-illiterate thinking. We were in a pandemic where businesses were forcibly shut down. And naturally, in a crisis like that, people turn to bricks and mortar investments. So people went to what they consider to be safe as houses, literally houses. That is not some sort of proof that migration doesn’t have the impact on housing prices and demand that it obviously does because people have to live somewhere.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah. And how hard is it just to say it’s a problem? I don’t get it. It’s just supply and demand. The other thing in COVID was supply chain disruption. It was hard to get raw materials. Plus, Labour governments are banning logging and actually getting timber. That doesn’t help either. So look, mass migration is the number one cause of house prices going up.
It is just obvious that if you don’t have the houses in place before people get here, prices will go up. The quickest and easiest way to improve affordability is to cut immigration and to cut it immediately. Yes, we need to fix the supply side. And they have the National Housing Agreement or the National Housing Accord. It’s been in place since mid last year, mid the year before, actually. It hasn’t hit one single target. Not one single target has been hit on that accord. So it’s just a disaster, and this is why no one trusts the government to get the job done.
Rita Panahi:
No, no. And Clare O’Neil also had plenty to say about One Nation and Pauline Hanson.
Clare O’Neil:
Absolutely turned my stomach to see that One Nation, which was quite rightly a pariah of politics. Pauline Hanson’s made a career out of sewing division and distrust and hatred between Australians, openly mocking people’s most important spiritual beliefs. And yet here she is being regarded as a mainstream political force. And my view is the Liberals and the Nationals have got a lot to answer for here.
Rita Panahi:
How out of touch is Clare O’Neil? The polling shows, and we’re talking about a number of polls by different polling companies, that Pauline Hanson is the most popular political leader right now, ahead of Sussan Ley and ahead of the prime minister.
Daniel Wild:
And ahead of Clare O’Neil, no doubt, as well.
Rita Panahi:
Oh, no doubt. If anyone knew who she was-
Daniel Wild:
I assumed she was referring to Islam when she said that. I didn’t know it was a spiritual belief.
Rita Panahi:
Exactly.
Daniel Wild:
That would be news to-
Rita Panahi:
Most Muslim people.
Daniel Wild:
… a lot of people.
Rita Panahi:
That would be news to pretty much 99% of the Muslim population to suggest that if you’re-
Daniel Wild:
[inaudible 00:07:19].
Rita Panahi:
… not in favour of the burqa, then you are mocking the spiritual beliefs of all Muslims.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah.
Rita Panahi:
I mean, really, it’s absurd. But what about that characterization? This continued effort to paint One Nation and Pauline Hanson as this extreme right, dangerous group that anyone’s aligned with them or has a preference still with them, then they’re guilty of something-
Daniel Wild:
Again, this is what’s driving people to One Nation. I mean, people like Clare O’Neil don’t get it. The people from the inner cities of Melbourne don’t get it. If you think that being concerned about mass migration is racist, you’re going to drive people to One Nation. She talked about division. Well, Clare O’Neil supported the Voice to Parliament, to divide it, literally, to entrench racial division in our constitution.
One Nation opposed the Voice to Parliament because on the basis that we’re all equal. Yet somehow Pauline Hanson’s sewing division and Clare O’Neil is trying to be in favour of unity. How does that work? Clare O’Neil supports a treaty. Now the Labour Party supports all kinds of divisive measures and what I would say is this is just projection. She’s projecting her own disposition onto Pauline Hanson and criticising it.
Rita Panahi:
Now let’s hear from finance guru, Mark Bouris. He’s joined the chorus of economists in calling out the government’s high spending, saying it is contributing to the rise in inflation and, naturally, interest rates. Have a listen.
Mark Bouris:
Every economist in Australia, just about every bank in Australia. Unfortunately, the Reserve Bank’s not going to be political, but they’ve all been telling the government, “Stop spending.” I mean, Milton Friedman, one of the greatest economists on this globe forever. In basic economics 101, what you learn at university in an economics degree, you do not spend more than you earn. So the government is spending more than earn, and that is what causes inflation. Consumers never cause inflation. Governments do.
Rita Panahi:
He’s a hundred percent right there. Consumers aren’t causing inflation. It is the mad government overspending.
Daniel Wild:
Well, that’s right. It is the government spending. And that is combined with the fact that you’ve got massive spending, which could be absorbed in an economy that’s growing. If an economy is growing faster than the rate of spending, then it’s not going to cause inflation, but they’re spending faster than the economy is growing. So you’re pumping more money into circulation, which is pushing up prices.
The other problem that you’ve got is productivity’s going down. Now productivity is basically our capacity of our economy to generate supply and wealth. So you’ve got government pumping in money, pumping in more people into the economy, which is increasing demand at a time when our ability to generate wealth as a country is going backwards. So if the government gets the economy growing, they can spend more, but I don’t think that’s on the horizon.
Rita Panahi:
Now we’re in a bit of a vicious circle right now, and Mark Bouris also weighed in on the real cost of living crisis, and it’s a lot worse than reported for those paying off a mortgage.
Mark Bouris:
Cost of living for a mortgage holder has gone out of control relative to someone who doesn’t have a mortgage. So mortgage holders in this country are getting punished for taking risks to buy a house and borrow money and only to help out those people who are spending money like drunken sailors. And they’re the people getting money from the government.
Rita Panahi:
Dan, this is true to form. Labour is again targeting, punishing those who work hard, who invest. Then there’s now talk of reform of property taxes to further punish investors.
Daniel Wild:
Well, that’s right. And that hasn’t worked well here in Victoria, which has pioneered this approach of taxing people and taxing land and taxing investors. And look, the problem here is that it’s not going to do anything about housing affordability, fundamentally. It’s not a key contributing factor to that. And it’s just an example of how Labour is late. It’s just another lazy tax grab.
They’ve got no answers to how to fix the budget. And look, the issue here is I think you can have a conversation about investors who have three, four, five homes plus, but they want to go after everyone. Most people who invest in property have one or two at most, and these are aspirational Australians that are investing in something, so they have a bit of money left over for when they retire alongside their super. And it’s just another example of, I think that Labour is just going to have this one-size-fits-all approach to punish people.
Rita Panahi:
It’s a slippery slope. They’re talking about winding back the capital gains tax discount just for property, not for other asset classes. And I think it’s such a regressive way to look at it because, like you said, so many ordinary people invest in property to become financially secure. It’s a real mum-and-dad investment vehicle. And that’s the one that’s being targeted, not people with share portfolios worth millions of dollars and more sophisticated investment vehicles.
Daniel Wild:
That’s a good point actually. That is the issue is it’s going to be like the nurses and the policemen and so forth that have got some money together, probably bought a modest unit somewhere in the outer suburbs that they rent out. And you’re right, they’re the ones that they’re going to go after.
Rita Panahi:
And they’re already having land tax against … a tax that you don’t have if you’ve got millions in a share portfolio. Now, before you go, we’ve got some data about office vacancy rates that surge to a near 30-year high in Melbourne with almost one in five CBD offices sitting empty. That is just a terrible state. The national average is 15.9%. And Sydney, even lower than that. The amount of empty CBD office space has more than doubled in Melbourne since Labour came to power in 2014, Dan.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah. Well, I think this is another example in my mind of, I mean, firstly, the economy going backwards, people don’t want to invest, businesses aren’t expanding their staff in the city. And it’s also a hangover from COVID. We had the longest lockdowns in the world in Melbourne. And I mean, I live in Adelaide now, which had a much different experience with the COVID lockdowns.
And you do realise that Melbourne is quite different to the rest of Australia because of how long the lockdowns were and the work-from-home concept became deeply entrenched because it had to, because you weren’t allowed to come into the office and now they’re going to legislate three days at home. So I think Melbourne is now an … Used to be a city that would attract investment, but because of lockdowns and the mentality that’s developed following lockdowns, it’s becoming a negative place to invest and that’s revealed in these vacancy rates.
Rita Panahi:
And it’s revealed in the mood of the CBD. It really is quite a depressing place compared to Sydney CBD, particularly if there are no major events during weekends. It can be fairly dark and depressing. Dan Wild, thank you so much for your time tonight.
This transcript with Daniel Wild on The Rita Panahi Show Sky News Australia from 5 February 2026 has been edited for clarity.
