In this interview Scott Hargreaves appeared on Afternoons – ABC Radio Darwin to discuss the IPA’s research on the views of mainstream Australians towards the ABC.
All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.
Below is a transcript of the interview.
Jess Ong:
Having a chat to Scott Hargraves, he’s the executive director of the Institute of Public Affairs, talking about whether the ABC is a little bit too left-leaning, a bit too woke. Off the back of a chat I had with the managing director, Hugh Marks last Thursday. It was something that came up in our conversation. How do you feel about it? Do you feel like the ABC reflects you and your community in the best way? Do you think that maybe we’re missing the mark? I’d love to know your thoughts this afternoon. You can give me a call on 1-300-057-222. It’s interesting to me that you talk about these diverse voices. What does diversity mean exactly?
Scott Hargraves:
Let me try and ground one in because rather than leave it out there, let’s say the energy debate, and it’s hard to think of a more pressing issue for Australia at the moment. It’s obviously tied up with whatever you think about how ambitious you want to be on climate change and so on. We all have a stake in the energy debate. Now following the ABC as I do and looking at the ABC website, we have something like the Smart Energy Council on speed dial. It seems that the only accepted view about what’s happening in energy and how quickly we can advance the energy transition is from the Smart Energy Council is if it’s some kind of independent body. I’m saying you don’t have that diversity at the moment. There’s a concrete example of where you could have viewpoint diversity. Sure, everyone will be pushing their own barriers. Let them.
Jess Ong:
The thing is as well, the ABC does have a charter to be balanced and fair, so then if the ABC were to lean one way or the other, it wouldn’t be delivering on the charter.
Scott Hargraves:
I think the other trap that the ABC falls into, is it things that both sides are just, well, there’s liberal in Labour or there’s Labour and the Greens versus liberals and nationals and if you have a little bit of political coverage, well, that’s sort of balanced. You may well be fulfilling your charter in trying to be balanced in political coverage. But in terms of the general overall tenor of what’s talked about or what’s covered on the website, certainly what pumps out of the television, it’s not balanced at all. And as I say, Hugh Marx seems to have actually acknowledged that it is leaning left and woke and something needs to be done.
Jess Ong:
I suppose one of the things with the ABC is and why people are so invested, and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this as well, why people care so much about what happens at the ABC. Obviously it’s taxpayer funded so people feel like they have a vested interest in it. I feel like there is always room for a challenging debate so long as it is respectful and there is insight into both sides. Is that kind of a naive view? Perhaps I’m not operating in the same world as everyone else.
Scott Hargraves:
Jess, I think your vision is absolutely right and that could be a much more interesting ABC even it has been put to me that the BBC in the UK, which is perhaps grounded because people actually have to pay for the licence, so they’re very interested in achieving balance. Its programming is much more interesting. There is a true balance of views on their leading programmes and we need more of that on the ABC.
Jess Ong:
Jess, I’m with you this afternoon. You’re hearing from Scott Hargraves. Here’s the executive director of the IPA having a chat to me on 1057 ABC Radio, Darwin and the Northern Territory. You might’ve heard my chat last week with the managing director of the ABC, Hugh Marks. One of the things we talked about in our very long chat was whether the ABC is too woke, too left leaning. You might think that. It’s a opinion that’s shared by lots of people around Australia. So kind of turning the lens on ourselves this afternoon, we’d love to know your thoughts. Do you agree with some of what Scott has said? Do you feel like your experience, your community, your take on things isn’t properly reflected in the ABC? How could we be doing things better? We’d love your thoughts, 1-300-057-222. One thing I’ve been thinking about is the problem actually the ABC or socially do you think Australia has become more conservative than we used to be?
Scott Hargraves:
Conservative, do you mean in a political sense or-
Jess Ong:
I just mean generally we’re less open to new ideas, we’re perhaps less open to people who have a differing opinion to us where we kind of stick to our own more so than we used to.
Scott Hargraves:
There is some evidence of that and certainly this idea that people are retreating to their own preferred sources of news and information and they’re not being challenged. That is a concern. I think it’s a little bit overstated because we live in a world awash with perspectives and different sources, but I think that does mean that yes, there’s an opportunity for the ABC with its fabled desire to be a trusted source of information, to be actually somewhere where you could go and where the truth is uncovered, not by just someone pronouncing as a so-called expert, what the truth is, but by staging those discussions, getting to the root cause of things and giving a destination, which is not just going to repeat back to people what they already believe.
Jess Ong:
So how would you like the ABC to look then, Scott, in the perfect world? If you were in charge, let’s imagine that. How would it look?
Scott Hargraves:
Well, the first thing I do is I would back in the regions. I mean, part of the affection that Australians hold for the ABC I think is very much based on this is where I grew up in Country Victoria with ABC Regional Radio, the shows that actually talking to people in the community about real issues. So I would certainly back that in and celebrate it and make sure that it’s not overwhelmed by the dare say, woke agendas of headquarters. I think content on, say even the entertainment programmes have got to… They’ve got to stop putting it through the filter, through the DEI filter of just meeting the diversity targets of characters and scripts and what gets greenlit.
Jess Ong:
Just on that though, Scott, sorry, I am going to interrupt you on that. Diversity, equity and inclusion. I know you’ve talked about that before. We were on Sky News late last year mentioning that it would be great if the ABC started to focus on merit and excellence rather than chasing their diversity, equity, and inclusion points. So I just bring that up because you’ve mentioned it before. One thing I wonder is what’s kind of wrong or what’s uncomfortable about having those people on screen? I’m talking about on screen because you’ve mentioned TV and scripts and characters, so I come from a multicultural background. I think it’s really important for people, especially young people, to be able to see themselves reflected back to them, to see what’s possible, to see that they’re able to exist outside of a box that perhaps traditionally mainstream Australia has like to see them function in. What’s so wrong with that or what’s so uncomfortable about having that opportunity?
Scott Hargraves:
Well, like all principles and as you put it there, you’ve got perfectly reasonable principles, but if you pursue that at the expense of all other principles, for instance, say in radio, you may well have all those attributes, but you are also clearly a very good presenter who runs a very good programme and skilled in the ways of radio. And there have been people promoted, and I don’t want to name names, but there’ve been people promoted who’ve had very little background in radio and frankly very little ability to actually carry it off.
Jess Ong:
You also did go on to say as part of that Sky News chat that the ABC used to be very good as being the great cultural institution telling Australian stories, but now the ABC for you is the last institution in the world that you’d be giving money to tell Australian stories because they’ll put everything through their DEI lens, the diversity, equity and inclusion lens, which apart from anything else, it makes for extremely boring programmes. So you can kind of see how that’s sort of interpreted as well if we try and have anything else or anyone else who might be a diverse background, for instance, that that just means boring yet. Really it is reflective of the community, the society that you and I live in.
Scott Hargraves:
Well, there’s an example, so if we frame criticism of DEI as an insult to multicultural Australians. Well, then we’ve just closed off the opportunity for the ABC to hear from voices who are somewhat sceptical. So I don’t accept the framing that you’re giving it. I think I’ve made a perfectly valid criticism and where we’ve pivoted to is an implication that this is some kind of calculated insult to Australians who may be recent migrants or descend second or third generation migrants or indigenous Australians or whatever. My point was that if you build everything around DEI, you’ll achieve your DEI objectives, but you won’t achieve any others. You won’t have told to come right back to the starting point of this interview. You won’t have told stories about mainstream Australians.
Jess Ong:
That was Scott Hargraves, the executive director of the IPA. Now, just a note there, that chat I had with Scott was of course edited for length. Scott did make mention of ratings and TV shows that are no longer on the ABC, including Q&A and the Drum. He also mentioned whether the reason those shows were dumped was due to this lack of diversity of opinion that he was talking about a little bit earlier. So keen to have the conversation with you. We can keep it going on 1057 ABC Radio, Darwin and the Northern Territory, checking in with Rio Davis from the newsroom. Hello.
Rio Davis:
Good afternoon Jess. Making news, the first witness in the trial of Outback Wrangler star Matt Wright has broken down while giving evidence. Mr. Wright’s pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempting to pervert the course of justice for allegedly interfering with the investigation into a fatal helicopter crash in remote Arnhem land, which killed his close friend Chris Wilson in 2022.. The chopper crashed near the King River during a crocodile egg collecting mission businessman, Burns operated a company involved in the egg collecting mission and told the court he travelled to the site with Mr. Wright. After receiving news of the crash, Mr. Burns struggled to speak saying he sat with Mr. Wright at the scene of the accident and did not look inside the crashed helicopter. New Zealand’s prime minister Christopher Luxon says there’s no closer friend to his country than Australia. As Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has confirmed, he’ll make a brief trip there this weekend.
The two leaders will meet in Queenstown for their annual meeting, which allows them to discuss the bilateral relationship and their priorities for the year ahead. And new evidence suggests people returned to live among the ruins of Pompeii after the ancient Roman city was devastated by a volcanic eruption. The Pompeii Archaeological Society says archaeologists believe some survivors who couldn’t afford to start a new life elsewhere returned to the site and may have been joined by others looking for a place to settle. Pompeii was home to more than 20,000 people before Mount Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD burying and preserving much of the city before its rediscovery in the 16th century. Jess, there’ll be more news at 4:00.
Jess Ong:
Thank you so much, Rio. Good to talk to you this afternoon. Do you have some thoughts on how the ABC is perceived in the world?
Rio Davis:
I think that it’s tricky for me to talk about as an ABC employee obviously. I think that the ABC’s focus and especially what we do here in ABC local radio is on where we are. And we try our best, I think to reflect where we are and what’s happening in Darwin and in the territory, and I think that that’s the ABC classic because I love it. There are so many niche programmes, podcasts, things where all of these things are discussed and not every programme needs to serve every interest.
Jess Ong:
And it’s hard to serve every interest, right?
Rio Davis:
It’s not possible.
Jess Ong:
You’re never going to please everyone. Good to talk to you Rio. Thank you. More from Rio at 4:00 on 1057 ABC Radio, Darwin and the Northern Territory. It is 23 to 4:00 on this Thursday afternoon. My name is Jess Ong. Going through a bit of a performance review hand in hand with you asking for your thoughts about what you reckon the ABC does well and where we miss the mark. Are we for reflecting the community, the life that you know and the society that you live in, or do you feel like maybe we’re missing the point every now and then? Maybe you don’t hear from the types of voices you want to hear from. You did hear Scott Hargraves there, the executive director of the IPA say that sometimes in big debates on the ABC, there are parts of the conversation that are missing, the diversity of voices aren’t there. I wonder whether that’s your experience as well. You can give me a call on 1-300-057-222. Graham Lianna, hello to you.
Graham Lianna:
Good afternoon.
Jess Ong:
What are your thoughts?
Graham Lianna:
Well, my thoughts are that anyone who expects balance in inverted commas is in the wind.
Jess Ong:
You don’t think it’s possible?
Graham Lianna:
It’s not of any consequence. The ABC presents a series of views. They’re not always totally… I mean, for instance, we don’t get a balanced view on what’s happening in Israel at the moment because they totally censor the news that comes out of them and anything that comes out of the other side, they say It’s all lies. It’s all lies and that’s just one story. But across the board, we can’t expect balance because everybody has a different idea of what is balanced. Liberal voters, liberal voters, independents, we all have different viewpoints and as a result, we all think that the balance is missing.
Jess Ong:
Well, the ABC does have a charter which involves delivering balanced and fair information, so that is something that the ABC needs needs to do as best as we can. Do you kind of feel like the ABC is doing that, or do you get your news sources from a whole range of different platforms, Graham?
Graham Lianna:
I mostly get it from the ABC, but I think expecting the ABC to cover every point of view is not the same as giving balance. If there’s two main points of view, you cover the two main points of view. You don’t cover all the sub-issues as well. You haven’t got 24 hours a day just on ABC Radio with open slather. If anyone phones in, that’s just like talk back radio. It’s absolute rubbish, talkback radio.
Jess Ong:
Hey, we’re doing that right now.
Graham Lianna:
Yeah, but you’ve got decent talkback radio. You haven’t got those idiots on the commercial stations. [inaudible 00:15:22] we’re biassed everything.
Jess Ong:
Hey, good to hear your thoughts on that this afternoon and thank you for giving me a call. Thanks for listening.
Graham Lianna:
See you.
Jess Ong:
See you. That’s Graham Lianna on 1-300-057-222. The afternoon’s programme is all about talkback. I’m always curious on your thoughts whether they’re about the frivolous matters, and trust me, we have done our fair share of frivolous conversation, but I also love that we aren’t afraid of going to have some of the more chunky conversation. Takes a bit of bravery from both you and me, I reckon. So thank you for being a part of the convo as always. 20 to 4:00 on 1057 ABC Radio, Darwin and the Northern Territory. Heard from Carol who said Scott Hargraves is making big assumptions. The ABC should stick to what they do best, fact checked good journalism, not just giving voice to opinions that are proven incorrect or not backed by the experts. Most people who complain about the ABC don’t even watch it. Reckons Carol did hear from someone else who said, “I listen for the facts of a story.” That’s as simple as it goes for that person. So long as there’s facts, that’s all they listen out for, which is fair enough. That’s what you need from your media.
Did hear from someone else who said, when Scott says mainstream Australians, he means white Australians. Let’s call that out right now. Everyone understands that, says this person on the text line. Also, I had a call from Jack in Larrakia. Hello, Jack.
Jack:
Good day, Jess. How’s things?
Jess Ong:
Pretty good. Thank you. What are your thoughts?
Jack:
Well, for once, I’m almost serious in as much that ABC Radio, particularly local radio in Darwin, is absolutely brilliant. They try. Like the guy said before, they try to keep equal as much as possible, but the current affairs television at least anyway, except for the local ABC News on TV, which is brilliant, but everything else like Four Corners and 7.30 Report, they’re all just out of Sydney, Melbourne, and Canberra. We all know what that is. Those are which government’s in power federally. They’re all left and green and all that sort of rubbish. But the local stuff is, I totally agree, it at least tries to balance things and tries to tell what actually happen as opposed to what some politically correct person somewhere in Canberra thinks should happen.
Jess Ong:
Do you feel like maybe where the ABC is in those metro markets that that’s not a true representation of what people’s experiences are outside of that place?
Jack:
Yes. Well, certainly, the television side is, yeah, for sure, because they throw on something which they seem to think that needs to be their version of what should be said as a person to what really actually happens.
Jess Ong:
Yeah, but who gets to decide that, Jack? I mean, I think that that’s an interesting point. You’re not the first person to have said that, that the ABC is deciding what’s important to talk about. How are you going to tick everyone’s box. Everyone has a differing opinion of what’s important. How do you manage to hit everyone’s mark?
Jack:
Oh, quite frankly, I don’t think you have. I’ve got a Tommy email, which I email all the time. He said BBC, for example, is completely hopeless. No one ever bothers to listen to it because it’s just so left and that’s embarrassing.
Jess Ong:
I guess that’s what I’m curious about, Jack, is that, how do you satisfy everyone? Is it even possible?
Jack:
No, I don’t think it’s possible quite frankly, because you’ve got a clique, if you want to call it that, of people in the Southeast of Australia. The two main capitals and so on. They say, well, we train all our, their reporters down there that do this, that and the other or whatever, only report whatever. But up here it’s a different story all together. That’s what I’m very happy about because you can tell the difference. I don’t know about ABC Radio down South, but certainly up here it’s brilliant. It’s really good.
Jess Ong:
Thanks, Jack. Thanks for your thoughts this afternoon. Good to talk to you. It’s Jack in Larrakia on 1300057222. Got some different thoughts there from Jack. Really loves ABC Local Radio here in the Northern Territory. Not so sure. He says in relation to stuff nationally, is that your experience as well? You might feel the same way, feel completely different. You can let me know on 1300057222 or shoot me a text via the ABC Listen app. Did hear from someone on the text line who said, there are certain presenters who do show their colours, especially ones in Sydney and Melbourne. That was the comment that had come through on the text line there. I did hear from someone else who said, networks such as Sky that don’t worry about DEI, that’s diversity, equity, and inclusion are great examples of why that leads to incredibly boring and single perspective viewing. Funny how people complaining about the lack of diverse opinions seem to mainly be complaining that the opinions they hear are different to their own.
I want the ABC to be presenting facts and expert opinions, reckons this person on the text line. Also heard from Charlie in Katherine who said, Jess, thank you. I think you and the ABC do a great job. Sometimes it might seem left leaning, but that’s from where I stand growing up in a liberal party household, where adults says Charlie, and yet sadly some seem to complain as a habit or as an automatic response. Tell the way you are and I’ll respect what you say and respectfully disagree if I need some afterthought on the matter, of course, reckons Charlie in Katherine. I think that’s one thing we do really well here on the afternoon’s programme. Sometimes it’s really tricky to have differing opinions and to be able to find the space to come on the radio and talk about those things. I think you and I manage to do it in a really respectful. Yes, I’m pulling out my line curious and empathetic way.
I think that’s the most important thing, so then all voices are heard, but as we’ve been talking about this afternoon, not everyone necessarily feels that way about the ABC. Some people saying that the ABC is not my ABC. It doesn’t represent me at all, perhaps it used to, now it doesn’t anymore. You might’ve heard me put that question to Scott Hargreaves, who is from the IPA. He’s the executive director there. I did say to him, is the problem the ABC? Is that what is at the heart of the matter, or are we as a country becoming more conservative? Are we less open to different ideas and hearing from different people? Maybe that’s where the challenge lies. If you’ve got some thoughts on that, keen to dig into it with you, 130005722. It is 14 to 4:00 on ABC Radio, Darwin, and to the Northern Territory. Someone else on the text line said that the IPA is a stooge for the LNP. Was a core conduit of the right-wing information that undermined the voice.
I thought that was why it was quite important to hear from someone who does have some pretty strong thoughts on the ABC. I was reading out a text I received a little bit earlier, a couple of weeks ago about yet another expert that had been chosen by the ABC to confirm their narrative. Well, I think talking to someone from the IPA and someone who has some big thoughts on the role of the ABC, whether we’re delivering on what we need to be delivering on, I think that challenges that notion that the ABC is choosing experts to confirm their narrative. That’s definitely not what we have done this afternoon. To hear from someone else who does have some criticisms of the ABC and also open to yours as well. Keep them coming.
This transcript of Scott Hargreaves on Afternoons – ABC Radio Darwin from 7 August 2025 has been edited for clarity.
