The Institute of Public Affairs’ Daniel Wild appeared on The Bolt Report Sky News Australia to discuss the IPA’s Economic Scorecard research.
All media posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.
Below is a trancript of the interview.
Andrew Bolt:
Joining me are Daniel Wild, Deputy Executive Director of the Institute of Public Affairs, and Gemma Tognini, founder of GT Communications, columnist, sage, so much more. Gemma, since you’re a sage, I’ll start with you. This whole diversity and equality industry, does it actually do any good?
Gemma Tognini:
I think that back in the day, it possibly did, and I want to put some context around that. I think there has always been a time where change needed a little bit of a niggle on, a little bit of a help around that. And I mean, I grew up… I’ll give you an example, Andrew. When I was a much younger person, I applied for a job at the ABC as a young journalist and the cadetship that I applied for was called an NESB Cadetship, someone with a non-English speaking background. And I’m obviously half Italian. We spoke Italian at home. I’m fluent in Italian. I didn’t get the job, spoiler alert. But that sort of initiative I think can be helpful. The problem is rarely the thing, it’s usually how it’s applied. And when certain sectors of the community, or let’s be honest, certain sections of politics get hold of it and take it to the nth degree, that renders it useless, expensive, ineffective, and has a reverse effect. So I think that perhaps in its initial stages it may have been useful.
As a woman, I can also say that there have been times where it hasn’t been fair and it hasn’t been equitable. I’m 51 years old and I’m old enough to remember what that was like. But I think where we sit today in 2025, it’s out of control and it absolutely needs to have the tree shaken, so to speak.
Andrew Bolt:
I get your point, but the problem I see with this tribalism is that once you start favouring one tribe, other tribes want their go at the trough.
Gemma Tognini:
Oh, for sure. Absolutely.
Andrew Bolt:
And it’s a zero-sum game. Certainly males, Christians, whites, Asians, Jews, they don’t really get there, but almost everyone else does. Example, Daniel, Victoria, our reddest state has beaten New South Wales, has now got a law requiring the government to take what it calls an intersectional approach to gender impact assessment, but considering the compounding effect of other factors such as aboriginality, race, age, disability, religion, gender identity, ethnicity, and sexuality on gender inequality. I mean, Daniel just writing that stuff would’ve cost him a mozza, trying to understand that rubbish as well, actually doing programmes to check for all that, can you imagine?
Daniel Wild:
Yeah. Well, no wonder the Victorian government’s primary vote is in the twenties when you’re going on with this, when you’ve got $200 billion in debt and they paid a billion dollars, remember, not to build a road. They don’t even have an airport link, a train link to the airport, and then they’re talking about this. The infrastructure is crumbling. You’ve got this massive population growth that hasn’t been planned for. So a lot of people look at this and they just can’t believe that our taxpayer dollars are being spent on it. When you talk about New South Wales as well, I was quite surprised to see that. From Victoria, you sort of roll your eyes and shrug your shoulders and go, “Here we go again.” But the New South Wales treasurer, Daniel Mookie, I think he’s starting to look a little bit kooky if he’s going to go down this Victorian path of know wokeism and DEI.
I don’t know whether this is sort of the department putting the cart before the horse as they are sometimes wont to do, but at the end of the day, the government’s got to take responsibility for this, and I would’ve expected a lot more from the Minsk government, which has been pretty sensible, it’s got to be said, on a lot of economic matters. They kept the coal-fired power station going, for example. So let’s see. But I just think Australians had a gut full of this and they just want service provided on an equal basis. It’s pretty simple.
Gemma Tognini:
Andrew, can I just jump in with one more thought on that, if that’s okay? Because I also think when it comes to these initiatives, it’s really specific around the issues, or sorry, around the sector. I’ll give you an example. A couple of years ago I had to have emergency surgery for a condition and I’m lying in bed, looking up at the surgeon. I wasn’t interested in his gender, race, sexuality, or intersectionality about anything. Was he a well-trained surgeon? Yes, he was. These initiatives tend to be imposed… I was about to say inflicted. That’s not untrue, imposed on sectors and on parts of the workforce where a person’s not going to die necessarily if the person performing that operation is unqualified. It’s very, very selective where these initiatives get pushed.
Andrew Bolt:
And I must say I’ve worked for two female bosses in my career, both wonderful women. I’ve learned a lot from both. Neither was a DEI hire. Daniel-
Gemma Tognini:
And no woman wants to be one. I can tell you no woman wants to be-
Andrew Bolt:
No, no, no. I know that, Gemma. Well, they say that, but I also know… It’s like actresses say, “Oh, I hate the way the industry doesn’t hire people like me of a certain age,” when these are women you know started their career because they were young and pretty. So I don’t know about that. A lot of women get DEI hires and then say, “How dare you?” I do know some of those.
Gemma Tognini:
I’ve turned down roles.
Andrew Bolt:
Daniel, what do you think of it?
Gemma Tognini:
I’ve turned down roles because I was offered it only because I was a woman. That’s just me. I can’t speak for other women, but I have 100% done that.
Andrew Bolt:
Gemma, you were out of the box. You were out of the box. Daniel, what do you make of it?
Daniel Wild:
Well, I think, Andrew, you’re spot on. In a lot of these issues, it’s gone too far. And I don’t think anybody wants to think that they’ve been in a place simply because of how they look or what the colour of their skin is. And most people want to be dignified with the idea that they’ve made it because of their capacity to make a contribution to the community on whatever role it is or their skills or qualifications. So look, I’m sure that there’s maybe some women or other minority groups who seek it out, but I think most people, most Australians certainly want to be treated equally and they just want to have a crack at whatever job it is. I’m certainly in favour of equality of opportunity and removing barriers to people from getting a fair start at life. But beyond that, it really should be supporting people with their aspirations rather than knocking people out on the basis of how they look. And I think that’s a pretty common sense value that most Australians would hold.
Andrew Bolt:
Let’s not forget that we live in a country where the Governor General seems to be a diversity and equity appointee, so we can’t be too proud. And just quickly, Gemma, very quickly… Talk about no nonsense, Georgia Meloni, nobody’s affirmative actioned hire. Prime Minister of Italy visited Saudi Arabia this week to sign deals with $10 billion. But even the fear of losing that money wasn’t enough to persuade her to wear a headscarf for a Muslim host. Can you just give us a Brava in the two seconds I’ve left?
Gemma Tognini:
Brava, Georgia Meloni, forse coraggio. All I can say, don’t underestimate a Roman woman.
Andrew Bolt:
Gemma Tognini, Daniel Wild, thank you very much to you both. That’s it from me.
This transcript from The Bolt Report Sky News Australia from 29 January 2025 has been edited for clarity.
