In this interview, Daniel Wild on Paul Murray Live – Sky News Australia contextualises and disseminates the findings of the IPA’s research into the government’s covid-19 response.
All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research
Paul Murray:
Howdy. Joining me right now, two big brain blokes from the completely different sides of politics, but they are right now in the same city, despite the fact of the optical illusion of television, they’re both in Adelaide, they’re both sitting next to each other, but they can’t look at each other because that’ll look weird on TV. Please welcome, Ed Cavanaugh, of course, from the McKell Institute being on the left of my screen, appropriately, Daniel Wild from the IPA on the right of my screen right now. Hello boys, I’d ask you to reach out, but then I’ll get emails tomorrow, don’t spoil the illusion. Anyway, guys, how’s Adelaide tonight, Daniel?
Daniel Wild:
Lovely, lovely weather, yesterday, very warm, nice and muggy today, so we’re really getting into summer, so it’s been a great weekend.
Paul Murray:
All right, and just to prove you are in the same studio, Ed, was it also muggy, do you agree, this weekend in Adelaide?
Ed Cavanaugh:
I completely agree, I hope that’s not the only thing we agree on tonight.
Paul Murray:
Great. Next step, we’ll have to get everyone holding up copies of the ‘Tiser, just to go, see, see, we’re in the same place at the same time. All right, let’s get to this. So, I had plenty of say, obvious reasons, about the violence on the streets in Melbourne, and we know what they are, we know the crazies, we know the trots, we know who this is. This is not Labour, it’s probably not even Greens, we are right right out there into twinkle town, right? But let’s be very, very clear, Daniel, the test in the next 24 hours is how those in power respond. We saw the police who normally can be very PC, going, bugger this, this is who did it, this is why they did it. Do you think it’s important-
Daniel Wild:
Well, that’s exactly right, Paul.
Paul Murray:
Sorry.
Daniel Wild:
And yeah, look, I think it is important, and I think what we saw was a real turning point in Victoria. What we’ve seen over the last few years with the police, unfortunately has been a real politicisation of the police force, we’ve had an unfair double standard often applied to those who are of the protected class and mainstream Australians who wanted to voice their views and protest. But what we saw today was some very deliberate words by, I think it was the commander of the police, saying that he actually pinpointed the left-wing activists who were behaving violently, who were seeking to cause trouble with the March for Australia demonstrators, and he also pointed out that the March for Australia demonstrators were peaceful.
So, he chose his words very deliberately, and in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen now for a number of years. So, I think this is a turning point, not just in Victoria, we know that the trust in the police in Victoria has been at an all-time low, in part because of the way that they went about the COVID protests, and how they basically became a political arm of Daniel Andrews, and I think this is important, and you’re dead right, everyone’s going to be waiting to see what Premier Allan does about this.
Paul Murray:
Well, I thought long and hard it about whether I should remind people that the Victoria police have rubber bullets, I chose not to at the start of things, and I’m not suggesting that I want to see a reverse version of violence on the streets, but good on the cops for saying what they said today. And there is no, zero downside for Jacinta Allan coming out and saying exactly the same thing tomorrow, there is no down… No mainstream Melburnian, Victorian accepts that what has happened today is cool.
Ed Cavanaugh:
Yeah, look, I think you’ll see Premier Allan come out and make pretty strong comments on this, I agree it was reasonable for the police to make the statements they did today, the violence is appalling, it’s a disgusting thing, people are getting sick of it. This is a completely fringe group that the whole purpose is to basically make a ruckus, does nothing for any of the causes, no one’s talking about the causes they were protesting, you don’t even know what they were protesting. So, this just distracts from all these legitimate issues that people are facing in the community, and I think Premier Allan will probably come out and have a pretty strong word about this tomorrow.
Paul Murray:
Now, can I also say, because I’ve got a couple of people maybe misinterpreting the early parts of my conversation this evening in and around Barnaby Joyce, right? I like Barnaby Joyce, no question, I love the bloke. I want him to be around politics for a long time, I just wanted to be very specific about this sort of, oh, replacing Pauline Hanson thing, that ain’t happening. David Littleproud was on our air a little bit earlier tonight, discussing the concept of the former leader, well, not running for the Nats, but maybe still being part of Australian politics at the next election.
David Littleproud:
He’s left all his options open, we want him to stay in the National Party, I think he has a contribution to make between now and when he retires. We’ve got some big decisions to make, some decisions to make around things like net zero, how we address those sort of challenges, and have a practical solution, not just be part of a protest party.
Paul Murray:
Now, Ed, let’s talk here, let’s try to jump past what has been the past couple of days of hot taking about whether he will, whether he won’t, what does it mean for the conservatives, et cetera, et cetera, right? But obviously there’s a moment right now where people are moving towards One Nation, right? A certain sliver of people, we can all say whence they come, and all the rest of it. Well, guess what? It’s a little bit of everyone at the moment, why? Because they’re liking what’s being put down. But it’s pretty obvious, even reading through the tea leaves here, we’re talking about three years away, yet some of the breaking rolling coverage of this was as if it had happened yesterday, and he was still the deputy prime minister. And again, I love Barnaby Joyce, I want him to stick around.
Ed Cavanaugh:
Look, I think there is this legitimate shift towards the One Nation vote, that’s for sure. But One Nation still have a pretty low ceiling in our national politics, I don’t think we’re ever going to see them get to the same levels that you’re seeing a party like Reform in the UK soaring to. It’s not really surprising at the moment when you’re seeing so much drift and so much sort of confusion on the right of politics generally, that you’re going to see defections. There’s a complete confusion around the message between the Libs, the Nats, and One Nation, they’re all sort of vying for the same argument on migration in some ways, and it doesn’t surprise me that Barnaby Joyce will see, potentially he’s going to have a longer parliamentary career if he does shift to One Nation, shift to the Senate again, that’s probably the logic behind this, but what difference does it really make, whether he’s going to have a Nationals hat on or a One Nation hat on, he’s going to be making the same points, making the same arguments as he is today.
Paul Murray:
Well, and again, to me, more strength through his arm, right? You disagree, that’s cool, and you’re not suggesting anything else. But Daniel, again, I was really interested how this played over the weekend, right? Because again, if the deputy prime minister had made a decision that was immediately impactful, then I get it right? Otherwise, you’re talking about a person who, yes, has absolutely been ostracised by the leadership of his party, has been pushed out of Shadow Cabinet, but a person who many in this country still believe has a powerful voice and a very big brain that should be close to the nucleus, not right out sitting next to Pluto, and by that I mean the Teals.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, look, I agree with that, I think what it highlights in addition to what’s already been discussed is I think a lot of the National seats are vulnerable in a way that’s not yet been detected. One of the narratives is that the Nationals have performed very well, which is true when you look at the number of seats they hold, they haven’t lost any seats, I think, for many, many years now, but I know for a fact there’s lots of people in regional Australia that do not feel that they have adequate representation, including in the Nationals party. We can see what happened in New South Wales at a state level a few years ago, where the Nats lost a lot of seats to the Shooters, Farmers, and Fishers party or independent, so there’s a lot of people who are disgruntled.
Net zero is one of the issues, but net zero is also kind of a, I guess a standard-bearer or an exemplar for the disconnect you have against the grassroots and the parliamentary leadership, and we see that in the Nationals party and the Liberal party. So, that’s one of the reasons why it’s such a flashpoint, so until the National and Liberal parties come to a very strong position on those two issues, you’re going to keep seeing this happen time and time again.
Paul Murray:
Yeah, well, we’ll all find out and we’ll watch along together, and the good thing is everyone involved in this, I like them, right? So, if it all ends up as a stronger version of all of them, then fine by me. All right, last one here, the meeting between the president and the prime minister. Ed, again, you know where I stand on Albo, no mystery of where I stand on Albo, but I think this thing’s going to be fine. I think it will be reviewed like it was the opening night of Hamilton. I think it’ll get rave reviews. Why? There will be no blow up, just there won’t be a blow up. And if we’ve set the path that low, then guess who’s going to pass it with flying colours?
Ed Cavanaugh:
Well, I couldn’t agree more, Paul, and I think it actually plays into the favour of the prime minister that we’ve seen for the entire year, basically the entire conservative side of politics have a go at him about his relationship, about the US relationship, about his relationship personally with Trump. They have lowered these expectations, and all he needs to do is basically have a smooth meeting tomorrow, and that will be seen as a triumph. I don’t think we’re going to see any huge deals or huge announcements come out of this meeting, but I do think we’re going to see an amicable friendly conversation, and that’s going to be a massive win for the prime minister, and I would hope that it would quieten some of this speculation down around the fraying of the US-Australia relationship, simply because Albo hadn’t been invited to the White House.
Paul Murray:
Yeah, look, I don’t think that it’s without comment or commentary or negative reviews about how far away these two people have been at times, but again, the model here is Canada, the model here is the UK, and that’s the issue. Daniel, again, for those. And look, is there part of me that would absolutely love to see the rip and tear, but it ain’t going to happen.
Daniel Wild:
Yeah, I agree, I think this is going to be a sort of a Canada-like situation, and when you’re a left-wing leader, there’s no downside for you on the domestic political front, because if Albo goes there and he gets beaten up by Trump, then Australians will say, oh, well he stood up to the American bully, he’s doing the right thing. If he gets a deal with Trump or it all goes well, he looks like he’s got a command on international affairs. So, it’s sort of what Ed was saying, the fact that… And people like me have sort of attacked Albo on this front. It sort of means that he’s got to win either way. So, I think on the domestic political front, he’ll be fine, now whether he’s able to kick the ball forward on the relationship remains to be seen, and I have my doubts, but I think he’ll come back home looking okay actually.
Paul Murray:
All right, thank you lads, do appreciate it. Enjoy Adelaide, muggy or otherwise, beautiful city, kiss the ground for me.
This transcript with Daniel Wild on Paul Murray Live Sky News Australia has been edited for clarity.
