Rafael Epstein:
And joining us, too, through the Chunky News of the Week is Emma Dawson. She’s executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.
Emma Dawson:
Good morning.
Rafael Epstein:
And Colleen Harkin is Director of the school’s programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.
Colleen Harkin:
Good morning to you both.
Emma Dawson:
Hello.
Rafael Epstein:
Hot takes. Let’s do hot takes first. Colleen, new leadership in the Liberal Party. What’s your hot take?
Colleen Harkin:
Look, I think Sussan Ley, obviously it was untenable, the scenario. New leader, new deputy. The issue actually though is, where is the policy? So I think most people, they do have a personal alignment whether a person who’s the lead, whether they like them or not, but ultimately the messaging has to be about what are they going to do differently to labour. And I always find it incredibly frustrating when politicians say, “We’re going to keep them to account.” What does that actually mean for me as a voter? So Angus Taylor hopefully will be a good communicator because that’s very much part of the issue is to be able to communicate which policies are, but they’ve got to get down and do a lot of hard work about, what are the policies? So I don’t know whether it will make enough difference. They’ve got, what? Two years, right?
Rafael Epstein:
They do have two years. They do.
Colleen Harkin:
So there’s a long time to come yet, but they do have to do the work and do the policy work.
Rafael Epstein:
Sure. I should point out to you maybe, I don’t know if it goes without saying or not. Chifley Research Centre that Emma is at strongly allied with the Labour Party. Institute of Public Affairs that Colleen is at, I don’t know if the connection is quite as strong. But-
Colleen Harkin:
No, it’s not but-
Rafael Epstein:
… Colleen is on the-
Colleen Harkin:
… we’re-
Rafael Epstein:
Yeah. And Colleen’s on the admin committee of the Liberal Party here. Just so everyone knows where people are coming from. Emma, what’s your hot take on Angus Taylor and Jane Hughes?
Emma Dawson:
Fantastic. Great move. Sorry.
Rafael Epstein:
Great move, Angus.
Emma Dawson:
Great move. Well done, Angus. I think Colleen’s right. I don’t think a change of personnel is the answer. And what I find interesting is when Angus Taylor put out his little video pitch for why he was going for the job, the policy area that he said he wanted, the policy framework that he said he was intending to pursue was socially conservative and economically liberal. This is the problem because that worked for a long, long time. But if you look at the electorate and [inaudible 00:02:54] at Red Bridge has done a lot of work on this. Our electorate is becoming much more socially liberal and economically, I wouldn’t say conservative, but certainly not liberal. And there’s a real problem out there that a lot of the reason that people are moving to the fringes, whether that’s left or right, is actually very little to do with the culture wars. It’s to do with the failure of economic liberalism or neoliberalism to deliver for ordinary people.
Rafael Epstein:
Just before. Happy to get into neoliberalism. I can see you’re championing because of that. That’s okay. There is something about the way the Liberal Party often portray. They seem to often say or believe there is something illegitimate in Dan Andrews victories. It’s three elections. Albanese just got lucky. There’s no substance or policy behind what led to Albanese winning two elections. To my ears, that sounds a lot like what labour said. John Howard kept winning and winning and winning. And labour was saying, “Look, he’s tricking the electorate. He’s pulling the race card. He’s not winning legitimately.” It wasn’t until the labour went, “Oh, actually that asylum seeker stuff, we’ve got to take that really seriously.” So I’ll put that on you, Colleen. Is there a lack of taking labour seriously?
Colleen Harkin:
Well, and I’ll answer that in the context of what Emma has said as well because I don’t think the Liberal Party don’t think that they’ve taken labour seriously. I think the problem is actually deeper than that, is who are they and what do they stand for, and what have they sold to the electorate? So Victoria and federally has been the same problem is what is the messaging? What are the three big… The Tony Abbott, three big ticket items. What are they that people can understand who you are, what you stand for, what you will do very quickly? Because most people are not policy wonks like am and they’re not interested in that detail.
Rafael Epstein:
So you want to stop the buy-tax, the tax?
Colleen Harkin:
Well, it’s very easy to understand then what it is that they’re trying to sell you. I mean, who wants to read copious things in the news-
Rafael Epstein:
Emma does.
Colleen Harkin:
… that way? Yeah, but we are not normal. Normal people-
Rafael Epstein:
No, I understand.
Emma Dawson:
But I also think you’re missing something like campaigning by slogan is one thing. Governing by slogan is quite another.
Colleen Harkin:
Well, but they’re core principles, right? And so what I think has been missing in the Liberal Party is the core principles. And so the real challenge for the Liberal Party at the moment is that those people who sit on the centre-right, have been abandoning in droves and going to one nation. And you look at the polling on one nation, it’s just sitting just under labour which tells you a lot about… Which is where I disagree with you about this sort of culture war where we want to be socially progressive or not. There is a mainstay of ordinary Australians who are centre-right. And the Liberal Party has left that space and the moderate Liberals have gone to the Teals.
Emma Dawson:
That’s right. That’s the point. Yeah.
Colleen Harkin:
So there is the chance that for the Liberal Party, if they don’t get their act together very, very quickly, it could be too late because they’ll exist by name.
Rafael Epstein:
Okay. Emma.
Emma Dawson:
Look, there’s a lot to unpack here. Colleen is right about that last point you made. The moderates have gone to the Teals. It’s not the centre-right that’s gone to one nation. It’s the right that’s going to one nation. And my point there is if the Liberal Party were to spell out what its principles are, they would not appeal to a majority of voters anymore. Younger people are actually much more engaged, they’re much more educated. Something like half of people under 30 have a bachelor’s degree now. They are saying this economic system has not worked for me. And so that the people that are moving to one nation are primarily doing so due to economic grievance rather than cultural issues. The cultural issues are easier to talk about. They’re easier to do a slogan about. But the deep-seated feeling that politics, that everything has failed us, that none of you are any good, a pox on both your houses kind of thing is due primarily to economic disenfranchisement of ordinary people.
Economic liberalism is not going to bring those people back. The supporters of the Liberal Party that have gone to the Teals, they are the socially progressive, economically liberal group, right? The socially conservative, economically liberal group is disappearing. And that’s what Angus Taylor has said he wants to appeal to.
Colleen Harkin:
I disagree.
Emma Dawson:
But just the other point here is this is actually in many ways quite a natural realignment, right? So if you look back in the history, this idea that Labor’s illegitimate to hold government is not new. It has existed for as long as the Labour Party has existed and that’s 135 years this year. There’s this view amongst the ruling class that Labour politicians come from a working class movement and they’re not fit to run the country. And that’s been throughout our history. That has never really gone away from certain people in the Liberal Party and in their supporters. But ordinary people, and you’ve got to remember that Australia’s changed a lot, right? Our middle class is much more diverse than it was. And our working class are-
Rafael Epstein:
They’re diverse.
Emma Dawson:
… incredibly diverse, right?
Rafael Epstein:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emma Dawson:
So they’re much more focused on those longer-term issues that, how are you going to help me and help my family? What’s the purpose of government? The idea of a very small government that stays right out of your life except when it wants to interfere in what you do in the bedroom, not popular anymore.
Rafael Epstein:
So if I can sum that up, I think Emma’s saying the Liberal Party’s being left behind by the population and Colleen is saying no, no, they just need to cohere around something. So I want to come to that. Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson are with you. It’s quarter past 10. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. David Spears is reporting that Angus Taylor is supposed to be speaking later this hour. When that does happen, we’ll try and pick out the best bits of that because Sussan Ley apparently is going to address the media as well. But on what comes next, I guess Jenny’s calling from the Basin. What do you want to mention, Jenny?
Jenny:
Oh, good morning. Yes. I’d just like to make the point and look at the perspective that regardless of whether it’s right or wrong to change leadership, we should be grateful that we have the opportunity to do so. Unlike some other countries where you just don’t have the choice.
Rafael Epstein:
Does it happen too much with the parties though, Jenny? Or you’re okay with the parties switching leaders a lot?
Jenny:
Well, I don’t say that I’m okay with it, but I think that perhaps they’ve got a better insight than I have on what should be done. But I just think we should be a bit more grateful that we’re in a free country where it’s allowed to happen.
Rafael Epstein:
Absolutely. And that’s not just glass half full, Jenny. Nothing wrong with pointing that out at all. In fact, great to point out. Greg’s in Flowerdale. What do you want to say, Greg?
Greg:
Good morning, Wrap, and to your call people you got with you. When you’re talking to your guests and whatever, and they start talking about centre-rights and mid-lefts and left wings and macro, all the jargon, what does it actually mean? Who are these people?
Rafael Epstein:
So you would like a definition of centre-right?
Greg:
Oh, of all the factions.
Rafael Epstein:
Oh, okay, okay. Well, look, I’m not sure we’ll get to all of them, but we’ll focus on the center-right because that’s the ground that the Liberal Party presumably seeks to cover.
Emma Dawson:
The best example of a centre-right politician in Australia in federal politics is not in the Liberal Party, and that’s Allegra Spender. She’s socially progressive, but economically quite liberal. And-
Colleen Harkin:
But that’s not a center-right, it’s actually-
Emma Dawson:
That’s a centre-right position. The further right you get, the less socially progressive you get, right?
Rafael Epstein:
So she’s Allegra Spender, member from Wentworth, that’s Malcolm Turnbull’s old. So you would describe her as economically what?
Emma Dawson:
I would describe her as economically liberal-
Rafael Epstein:
And socially progressive.
Emma Dawson:
But socially progressive.
Rafael Epstein:
Okay. So socially progressive, economically liberal. Why is that for you, Colleen, not the Liberal Party?
Colleen Harkin:
No, because I think that the centre-right is more conservative than what you are describing. And I agree with the caller to my earlier point that the average person in the street, they’re just not tuned into all of these labelling of factions and all that. That’s why Tony Abbott was very successful is that he could distil-
Emma Dawson:
It goes back to the French Revolution, this left and right-
Colleen Harkin:
But yes, I know.
Rafael Epstein:
I just want to ask you to address something, Colleen.
Colleen Harkin:
But he could distil complex things into a couple of quick sentences.
Rafael Epstein:
Can I ask you a question?
Colleen Harkin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rafael Epstein:
Just try and see if we can step further down the path. Emma’s saying the Liberal Party had been left behind by the broad sway, the voters younger, more progressive, more diverse. I assume you disagree. Why?
Colleen Harkin:
Well, I’ll just give you an example of the burning the flag thing in the Australia Day holiday. And I know you’ll say that they’re just one-off items, but I think they are an insight to how people think. And 80 per cent of 18 to 24-year-olds, so we are talking young people, want to celebrate Australia on Australia Day on the 26th of January, and they want to have the burning of the flag as a criminal offence. Now, I don’t support a criminal offence scenario, but it is an interesting insight to what they want. And I would-
Emma Dawson:
Yeah, I agree.
Colleen Harkin:
… call that socially conservative-
Emma Dawson:
No, see, I wouldn’t.
Colleen Harkin:
… because-
Emma Dawson:
I would call that progressive patriotism.
Rafael Epstein:
Emma. What would you call it, Emma?
Emma Dawson:
Progressive patriotism.
Colleen Harkin:
I don’t even know what that means.
Emma Dawson:
I think you’re right. And I think that a lot of what people think of as the left are actually quite the extreme left in this country and a lot of what we’ve seen in some of the more extreme language that’s been used in protests and so on. And I think you’re right. The majority of people are actually quite proud of their country. They like being Australian. The culture will stuff leaves the majority of people cold, to be honest. They’ll get involved in it if they’re pushed, but it’s not something they spend a lot of time thinking about. But I don’t think these labels, they don’t appeal to ordinary people.
Colleen Harkin:
But you just made one up.
Emma Dawson:
Well, no. I was asked what I think-
Rafael Epstein:
She’s analysing. She’s analysing. She likes to analyse.
Emma Dawson:
I was asked what I think the centre-right is and I gave what I think is my best example of what I think of as the centre-right. But I would not describe Angus Taylor as centre-right. I would describe him as right. Not far right, but right. He’s-
Rafael Epstein:
Too right for the country in your mind?
Emma Dawson:
Yeah, today. Yes, I think so.
Rafael Epstein:
Okay. So Colleen, I know what you’d like to see in the Liberal Party. Is he too right to win the middle?
Colleen Harkin:
No, I don’t think he is, but my challenge there is whether he has the capability to sell the message. And what is the message?
Emma Dawson:
What is the message?
Colleen Harkin:
And it is very much part of the issue as to who the person is in their capability to sell it. Because the John Howard thing about being the broad church. The Liberal Party’s positioning is not easy to say to people, “We support your personal responsibility.” A lot of people don’t want to be responsible. It’s much easier when the government takes the responsibility for you. So to sell the messaging about the government not being in your place, because that feels like a safety net for a lot of people. So to educate, the policy is-
Rafael Epstein:
So just one thing to point out maybe. John Howard’s middle-class welfare doesn’t sound like standing on your own two feet. Did he sow the seeds of your own destruction?
Colleen Harkin:
Possibly. I mean, John Howard is obviously on a pedestal in the Liberal Party, but he also did things like, from my point of view, nuclear. Banned nuclear on a trade horse.
Rafael Epstein:
A whole lot of things you don’t like.
Colleen Harkin:
Right? So a lot of things that I would say, in hindsight, they’re shocking things.
Rafael Epstein:
That you agree?
Colleen Harkin:
Yeah.
Rafael Epstein:
Okay. I’ll get back to both Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson and you. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. One of the Liberals who was vying but didn’t succeed in getting a deputy position has spoken, is the only person. I’ll play you a bit of that in a moment. I want to talk about the protests that have become a feature of the life in the city. Back with all.
Rafael Epstein:
I should mention Dan Tehan, who’s the member for Wannon, part of the Shadow Cabinet. He’s speaking on ABC TV at the moment. Angus Taylor and Jane Hume haven’t spoken yet. Dan Tehan’s not telling us too much. He wouldn’t say why he chose to vote for Angus Taylor.
Dan Tehan:
Right here and now and publicly, I’m not going to go into all that. We’re going to hear from Susan. We’re obviously going to hear from Angus and Jane, but I just wanted to make sure that I was prepared to come out publicly, A, to congratulate Angus and Jane-
Journalist:
We appreciate that.
Dan Tehan:
… which is fantastic. And also just to thank Susan for the Herculean task that she undertook.
Rafael Epstein:
So I assume that’s Dan Tehan wanting to be diplomatic, whether or not they need to be diplomatic about how they, for the last election, I’m not sure. 1300-222-774 is the number.
I just wanted to turn our attention to the CFMEU issues. There’s actually a great graphic on the age website. They had a whole of their own front pages from between 2010 and 2014. So in some ways the story is familiar. You have to give huge credit to a whole lot of reporters including Nick McKenzie. That’s the reason we’ve got an administrator. That’s the reason we’re talking about it this week. It seemed to me significant that you have someone like Jeffrey Watson coming up with a number because sure, anybody can have a casual conversation with a developer or a bureaucrat, but Jeffrey Watson’s a serious person. The Fair Work Commission president has backed that number of a 15% criminal element in Victoria’s Big Build. So that is out there. I’ll start with you, Colleen. At the same time, I mean, how many Herald Sun front pages were there about the CFMEU, especially during the 2018 and 2022 elections? Dan Andrews was asked about it uphill and down dale. It’s clearly a significant issue. Is it a game changing issue this time?
Colleen Harkin:
Well, it has to be hopefully because if it’s in the newspaper and we all learn about it, surely those people who should have known about it should have done something about it. I actually think this is… Jacinta Allan should resign over this because she was the minister in charge and she can’t pretend that she didn’t know because if she didn’t know, that’s absolute incompetence and she should stand down and if she did know, it’s complicit.
Rafael Epstein:
I want to interrupt, that line. I have heard that line put to Dan Andrews multiple times at multiple press conferences during election campaigns. So I know you wanted to be a game changer. Will it be a game changer?
Colleen Harkin:
Well, I think for people it is because that’s, how many hospitals is that money, and it’s not even that it’s an extraordinary expense that has been added onto the cost of build. It’s where the money has gone. If the build, excuse me, cost $15 billion more and it went to developers who employed thousands of people, that might even be different.
Rafael Epstein:
Although it’s kind of murky where the $15 billion ends up.
Colleen Harkin:
Yeah.
Rafael Epstein:
Clearly a lot of it ends up with criminals. We don’t know quite how much. It’s very difficult to know that for sure, because that’s an estimate of the extra money.
Colleen Harkin:
It’s a small accounting error.
Rafael Epstein:
It’s a big amount of money. Emma, I’m assuming you also think it’s important. Is it a game changer?
Emma Dawson:
It depends on Jess Wilson.
Colleen Harkin:
That’s true.
Emma Dawson:
She could make a lot out of this, it is a terrible finding. I mean, I’ll caveat it by saying that there’s some question about it’s alleged.
Colleen Harkin:
Yes.
Emma Dawson:
There’s some question about numbers.
Rafael Epstein:
It’s estimated, it’s estimated.
Emma Dawson:
But look, the fact is this is not acceptable and it’s not great for the Labour movement, right? When you have a union that behaves like this and that has a litany of issues, both in relation to this sort of legal and criminal infiltration, but also their treatment of women. It’s incredibly damaging for the entire movement. They’re meant to be a movement that represents working people and fights for their rights at work.
Rafael Epstein:
Let me ask you an electoral tactic question. If Jacinta Allen and her ministers get up and say, look, Royal commissions don’t work. The only thing that did work, Anthony Albanese appointed the administrator. Even Jeffrey Watson says things have improved in the last 18 months. Victoria Police, Task Force Hawk. Okay, maybe we were late, but we were the people who started to clean it up. But Jeffrey Watson says it’s a lot cleaner. What? Do you say that? Is that a winning tactic or you guys don’t say anything?
Emma Dawson:
I would say that. I mean, if this is why I’m not a politician, right, because I would say it and then I’d get in trouble. But no, I do think that… I’m not a fan, as I’ve said before, of throwing every issue to a Royal Commission. I think people are elected to lead, and if they make a mess then they should clean it up. Often Royal Commissions are called because we want to embarrass the other party, and I think people are sick of that performative stuff. So no, I think it is the right thing to say, look, we had a problem here. We have started to clean it up. We will continue to clean it up. And then there needs to be clear demonstration that is ongoing.
Colleen Harkin:
But what does clean it up mean? Because the issue here is it’s criminal, right?
Rafael Epstein:
Well I think the issue is getting people to complain about the criminals. That’s the number one issue.
Emma Dawson:
Fear, there’s fear.
Colleen Harkin:
Fear, correct. I agree with your Royal Commission. I mean by the time that would happen, it’ll be years down the track.
Rafael Epstein:
Wilson’s going to have one.
Colleen Harkin:
I’m not a big fan of Royal Commissions, and you never have one unless you know what the answer’s going to be.
Rafael Epstein:
That’s very Sir Humphrey of you.
Colleen Harkin:
Very Sir Humphrey, yeah. But I think what needs to happen is the police to be given a special task force to investigate this and-
Rafael Epstein:
Well, they do have one.
Colleen Harkin:
… and take it-
Emma Dawson:
The challenge is the fear of witnesses aren’t going to, because this is organised crime. It’s shocking.
Colleen Harkin:
It’s a shocking situation.
Rafael Epstein:
I do think the police aren’t the solution. They need to be tough. I don’t know how you do it. It’s very clear, the only way to solve it is get people to feel safe enough to speak up. And how do you use that as evidence in our court system?
Colleen Harkin:
Completely disband the CFMEU?
Rafael Epstein:
Well, I’m not sure that, well, I guess the argument against that is they appointed an administrator and that we’ve gotten this far down the path. Maybe. I mean, I’m not an expert on-
Emma Dawson:
I mean, legally. There’s only so far you can go, right?
Rafael Epstein:
That’s the issue.
Emma Dawson:
Unions has the right of assembly.
Rafael Epstein:
They’ll just form another union.
Emma Dawson:
You can disband the CFMEU and they just form again. It amongst-
Colleen Harkin:
But then you don’t have to be giving them government contracts. Part of the problem here is that it’s all been made, or most of it seems to be money in the Big Build.
Rafael Epstein:
The Big Build is the crucial issue.
Colleen Harkin:
That’s the charge. And so they don’t get government contracts. I mean, there is stuff that can be done.
Rafael Epstein:
Well, nine years of federal liberal government. Either way, I’m not sure that it’s a simple problem to fix.
Emma Dawson:
Has anyone watched The Sopranos? I mean, it’s-
Rafael Epstein:
That’s right. We’ll adjudicate that in the state election. Maybe we are talking about the liberal leadership though, or we’re waiting, I should say, to talk more about the liberal leadership with Jane Hume and Angus Taylor. Before I get to that, let me flip the switch a bit. I will get to some more calls hopefully after the news headlines.
When you are not, Colleen, plotting how to become a corruption buster, when you’re not wearing your Elliot Ness hat, what are you watching? What are you reading that we might all enjoy?
Colleen Harkin:
So as you know, I have a 21-year-old son and we have this agreement. Every so often we’ll watch will do something that’s outside each of our comfort zone or a movie, classic movie. Anyway, the other night we watched, you’ve probably seen it forever ago, but thing called Django Unchained.
Rafael Epstein:
Oh. Welcome, Colleen.
Colleen Harkin:
So I don’t really usually like Tarantino’s work. It’s a bit too much in your face and it’s too bloody and violent.
Emma Dawson:
You have to watch it through your fingers.
Colleen Harkin:
But I actually really enjoyed it.
Rafael Epstein:
Even all the blood. You still enjoyed it?
Colleen Harkin:
Yeah, because it’s almost, it’s not real. Do you know what I mean? It’s sort of like it’s a revenge movie, and so it wasn’t-
Emma Dawson:
It’s a melodrama.
Colleen Harkin:
Yeah, so I was, well, maybe I just got used to Tarentino. Yeah, I did. I really enjoyed it.
Rafael Epstein:
Have you seen Inglorious Bastards?
Colleen Harkin:
No. That’s actually on our list.
Rafael Epstein:
Top tier. I am not a Tarantino fan. Inglorious Bastards is top of the list.
Colleen Harkin:
Okay, well that’s on our list.
Rafael Epstein:
Very weird. Quite wonderful. Okay. Django Unchained. Good endorsement. Emma?
Emma Dawson:
Well, I don’t have a 21-year-old son. I have a 12-year-old daughter, and last Saturday night we sat down and watched the revival of The Muppet Show. 50, it’s just a one-off. It’s a one-off.
Rafael Epstein:
There’s more episodes coming, I think.
Emma Dawson:
No, there aren’t.
Rafael Epstein:
Is there just only the one.
Emma Dawson:
It’s the one-off to celebrate the 50th anniversary. My hope is that they’ll see that it does really well and make more. But it’s a classic old Muppet’s show style episode. Half an hour. They’re all in the old theatre. Sabrina Carpenter is the guest. My daughter is a huge Sabrina Carpenter fan. She brings the vaudeville. There’s a Miss Piggy-off. All I can say is get around it people. And we’re a bit disappointed to find there was just the one episode, but Disney is also streaming the original series. So that’s our new Saturday night thing.
Colleen Harkin:
Oh, that’s happy.
Emma Dawson:
We’re going to sit down and watch The Muppet Show. I’m going back to my childhood. She loves it. It’s a lot of fun.
Rafael Epstein:
It was amazing to see an episode of The Muppets made in 2025, 2026. That felt like when I was in grade five.
Emma Dawson:
It felt exactly the same, didn’t it?
Rafael Epstein:
It felt exactly the same.
Emma Dawson:
Exactly the same.
Rafael Epstein:
Not quite the same voices.
Emma Dawson:
No.
Rafael Epstein:
Because-
Emma Dawson:
Almost.
Rafael Epstein:
I Don’t know if Frank Oz is deal. Jim Henson is dead. But yeah, no, highly, highly delightful.
Emma Dawson:
And she’s the perfect guest for it.
Rafael Epstein:
Because whenever you watch the Dolly Partons or the Mark Hamils or Elton John, it’s like, wow, that’s hard. It’s not as easy as it looks. And Sabrina Carpenter, chef’s kiss.
Emma Dawson:
Nailed it.
Rafael Epstein:
Very impressive. Great recommendations. Thank you both for coming in.
Colleen Harkin:
Thank you.
Emma Dawson:
Yeah, thank you.
Rafael Epstein:
Emma Dawson’s at the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen Harkin is at the Institute of-
This transcript of Colleen Harkin speaking on Weekly Wrap Mornings – ABC Radio Melbourne from13 February 2026 has been edited for clarity.
